[Submitted] Liberate Haven

[Oaledonia]

I completely support this.

Have fun supporting something that's doomed to failure.

[Rephesus]

Which is an abuse of power. Haven has a right to decide whether or not it opens up, not an overarching organization bc people r bored.

You're running into an issue of Haven's "rights" being irrelevant in terms of mechanics and power. You argue that Haven has a right to not have the SC exercise power over it, yet that power exists and can be used at the will of the voters.

Yet it was made to free regions of raiders, like yourself, yet now we see raiders (You) exploiting the function to allow you to open a region to vandalize and destroy it.

[Mallorea and Riva]

You're running into an issue of Haven's "rights" being irrelevant in terms of mechanics and power. You argue that Haven has a right to not have the SC exercise power over it, yet that power exists and can be used at the will of the voters.

Yet it was made to free regions of raiders, like yourself, yet now we see raiders (You) exploiting the function to allow you to open a region to vandalize and destroy it.

Double edged swords cut both ways.

[Parhe]

While the original motivations of the ones involved may not have been to cause negative harm to a region (I won't say whether it was or not) those involved should have been aware that such actions would impact relations and how some may view the RP community. Kind of like how Mall doing this, among others, has seriously impacted how the RP views R/D.

Whether they knew or not is not really the pertinent question here. The question is whether or not they cared what the R/D community thought.

I mean, look at the original 'liberation' of Haven. Just like this one, it was a transparent attempt at the destruction of a community. The raiders throughout that thread came up with all sorts of lovely apologism for that destruction (you can see their descendants coming out of MaR and company's mouths), the defenders shrugged and said 'well, there's nothing we can really do about it - it's the way the SC works' and the mods came down definitively on the 'suck it up, buttercup' side of things.

In the face of that sort of institutional, intractable uncaring, is it any surprise that the RP'ers that moved into gameplay took up a devil-may-care attitude? It was, after all, the treatment they got from everyone else.

Well most defenders and a portion of raiders did say this is how the SC worked but was against the idea of forcing a region like Haven open and so said they would be against it (and so vote against if it came to vote). They cared, contrary what some raiders said, but they are trying to prevent it as they are allowed to by the current rules, which, to be fair, many RP'ers are doing the same. The equivalent would have been if the RP'ers involved, at least a large minority, were instead working to undo the coup.

I am dim I admit, so I don't understand how their first interactions with defenders being them coming the RP'ers' aid convinced "those people" (I use quotes to clarify I only mean those that are referenced to in the post) to raid.

Many of the people that came into the R/D game from RP'ing started out as defenders (primarily, one would imagine, as a part of the defender groups that came to their aid), then moved on to other pursuits for their own reasons.

Well I suppose that makes sense. Though it almost sounds like biting the hand that feeds you.

[Feux]

I completely support this.

Have fun supporting something that's doomed to failure.

I will.

[Rephesus]

Yet it was made to free regions of raiders, like yourself, yet now we see raiders (You) exploiting the function to allow you to open a region to vandalize and destroy it.

Double edged swords cut both ways.

So you acknowledge that you're exploiting the mechanic, you've stated your desire to see the region destroyed and you wish to continue on with it anyway.

Interesting.

[Avenio]

Well most defenders and a portion of raiders did say this is how the SC worked but was against the idea of forcing a region like Haven open and so said they would be against it (and so vote against if it came to vote). They cared, contrary what some raiders said, but they are trying to prevent it as they are allowed to by the current rules, which, to be fair, many RP'ers are doing the same. The equivalent would have been if the RP'ers involved, at least a large minority, were instead working to undo the coup.

The issue is that the R/D community let something that was clearly aimed at prying open non-participatory regions and looting them come into existence in the first place - but that's not the topic of this thread.

Well I suppose that makes sense. Though it almost sounds like biting the hand that feeds you.

Why? Even if RP'ers owe some sort of fealty to defenders for coming to their aid, surely by serving in defender groups they 'paid off' that debt. What they do afterwards is none of anyone else's business.

Not that MaR and company care, of course. Targets of convenience and all that.

[Elke and Elba]

45 approvals. 29 more to quorum.

There must be some way to stop this. But 1 day and 20 hours is a long time, and the telegrams sent by whoever-that-was is going to be pretty far-reaching...

[Mallorea and Riva]

Double edged swords cut both ways.

So you acknowledge that you're exploiting the mechanic, you've stated your desire to see the region destroyed and you wish to continue on with it anyway.

Interesting.

What do you mean by exploiting?

[Parhe]

Well most defenders and a portion of raiders did say this is how the SC worked but was against the idea of forcing a region like Haven open and so said they would be against it (and so vote against if it came to vote). They cared, contrary what some raiders said, but they are trying to prevent it as they are allowed to by the current rules, which, to be fair, many RP'ers are doing the same. The equivalent would have been if the RP'ers involved, at least a large minority, were instead working to undo the coup.

The issue is that the R/D community let something that was clearly aimed at prying open non-participatory regions and looting them come into existence in the first place - but that's not the topic of this thread.

It was clearly aimed to pry open regions taken by raiders that locked out natives. What you say was a side-affect not the clear reason.

Well I suppose that makes sense. Though it almost sounds like biting the hand that feeds you.

Why? Even if RP'ers owe some sort of fealty to defenders for coming to their aid, surely by serving in defender groups they 'paid off' that debt. What they do afterwards is none of anyone else's business.

Not that MaR and company care, of course. Targets of convenience and all that.

Why? Because it is literally "biting the hand the feeds you." Working against the force that helped you.

You are the one that implies they owe some debt to defender groups. I only say what, according to you (some RP'ers got involved with R/D when Defenders came to help liberate one of their regions after some raiders took it, and then over time turned to raiding), happened and made an observation. In part it is because I feel some weird obligation to respond to all posts to me and felt what I states wasn't exactly offensive to any,

[The Eternal Kawaii]

Double edged swords cut both ways.

So you acknowledge that you're exploiting the mechanic, you've stated your desire to see the region destroyed and you wish to continue on with it anyway.

Interesting.

Well, you have to give them credit for audacity, at least.

[Othelos]

Which is an abuse of power. Haven has a right to decide whether or not it opens up, not an overarching organization bc people r bored.

You're running into an issue of Haven's "rights" being irrelevant in terms of mechanics and power. You argue that Haven has a right to not have the SC exercise power over it, yet that power exists and can be used at the will of the voters.

Even if the power exists, it should only be used to liberate regions that actually need to be liberated. Otherwise, it's excessive.

[Avenio]

It was clearly aimed to pry open regions taken by raiders that locked out natives. What you say was a side-affect not the clear reason.

Go read violet's remarks on the issue. (under 'this is an abuse of the liberation feature'.) It was both foreseen and allowed to occur.

Why? Because it is literally "biting the hand the feeds you." Working against the force that helped you.

Again, I can't speak for the motivations of the people involved.

You are the one that implies they owe some debt to defender groups. I only say what, according to you (some RP'ers got involved with R/D when Defenders came to help liberate one of their regions after some raiders took it, and then over time turned to raiding), happened and made an observation. In part it is because I feel some weird obligation to respond to all posts to me and felt what I states wasn't exactly offensive to any,

The phrase 'biting the hand that feeds you' implies dependency on the part of the one that 'bites', so to speak.

[Nierr]

45 approvals. 29 more to quorum.

There must be some way to stop this. But 1 day and 20 hours is a long time, and the telegrams sent by whoever-that-was is going to be pretty far-reaching...

We just keep doing what we're doing, counter-campaigning. The faster we can get the counter-tg out to the delegate that approves the resolution, the better chance we have of stopping this getting to quorum.

Just why the rest of you are continuing to argue in circles about this, I've no idea. But there's probably more productive uses of your time on NS

[Freihafen]

Apparently people enjoy beating the twin dead horses of Havenite involvement in the TSP coup and the legality of using liberations as offensive weapons, even though its fairly clear in the case of both.

[Darwinish Brentsylvania]

Strongly against.

[Wolfmanne]

A WA proposal I actually care about, considering how vehemently opposed to it I am.

[Othelos]

A WA proposal I actually care about, considering how vehemently opposed to it I am.

same.

[Imperializt Russia]

What the shit do you expect "opening up" Haven will achieve? Sapphire has changed nil since we regained control.

So what you're saying is that the raid had no long term impact on Sapphire?

Aside from making us incredibly hateful of R/D, and myself of you, no.

[Rephesus]

So you acknowledge that you're exploiting the mechanic, you've stated your desire to see the region destroyed and you wish to continue on with it anyway.

Interesting.

What do you mean by exploiting?

Using a loophole in the system in a way counterproductive in regards to how the function was made to be used.

[Mallorea and Riva]

What do you mean by exploiting?

Using a loophole in the system in a way counterproductive in regards to how the function was made to be used.

The function was made to be used in order to remove passwords from regions in order to prevent "game over" scenarios in which regions would be locked down, thereby making one side entirely victorious. The raiding group Macedon more or less perfected this technique. As [violet]'s post indicated, the fact that liberations could be used in this manner was known.

[Rephesus]

Using a loophole in the system in a way counterproductive in regards to how the function was made to be used.

The function was made to be used in order to remove passwords from regions in order to prevent "game over" scenarios in which regions would be locked down, thereby making one side entirely victorious. The raiding group Macedon more or less perfected this technique. As [violet]'s post indicated, the fact that liberations could be used in this manner was known.

Known, sure, but not intended. It was made for Game Over. Haven wasn't even in the game.

[Mallorea and Riva]

The function was made to be used in order to remove passwords from regions in order to prevent "game over" scenarios in which regions would be locked down, thereby making one side entirely victorious. The raiding group Macedon more or less perfected this technique. As [violet]'s post indicated, the fact that liberations could be used in this manner was known.

Known, sure, but not intended. It was made for Game Over. Haven wasn't even in the game.

http://www.nationstates.net/region=haven

Judging by the nationstates.net url I'd say that yes, it is in fact in this game.

[Rephesus]

Known, sure, but not intended. It was made for Game Over. Haven wasn't even in the game.

http://www.nationstates.net/region=haven

Judging by the nationstates.net url I'd say that yes, it is in fact in this game.

You know I meant the R/D game right? The liberation proposal was meant to stop either Raiders or Defenders form controlling a region , I.e Game over, you said it yourself. Haven is neither Raider nor Defender.

[Darwinish Brentsylvania]

Known, sure, but not intended. It was made for Game Over. Haven wasn't even in the game.

http://www.nationstates.net/region=haven

Judging by the nationstates.net url I'd say that yes, it is in fact in this game.

He meant the R/D game. And they just don't want to get involved in R/D.