[Submitted] Liberate Haven

[Replicated Malgraveans]

Something that sets a precedent to remove the passwords of roleplaying regions across nationstates and force them into the R/D dynamic without consent? What a complete and utter load of tripe and an extremely worrying one. Opposed.

[Minnysota]

You mean like besides the embassy which was given during the coup in exchange for support?

I'm seeing a lot of words and claims about Haven's involvement but no legitimate proof. Try again.

[Delmonte]

Plus lets not forget you've still provided no proof that Haven was even remotely involved. And again, even if one or two Havenites were involved, that doesn't justify stripping them of their region. And can we stop calling this "Liberate Haven"? It's pretty clear that this is a Raid, not a Liberation.

You mean like besides the embassy which was given during the coup in exchange for support?

Mallorea, I am in Anarchy right now endorsing a Raider delegate as part of an agreement with several raiding groups. Granted, I won't be there much longer, but that's where I've been for the past couple months. So doesn't that mean that the RP community supports the Raiders? By your Aristotelian quality logic.

The members of the Concordat who signed on to support raiders do. But TSP wasn't a raid, it was a coup, a coup backed by around two hundred RP'ers, including some from Haven and Haven's express approval.

Everyone in the Concordat is an RPer. I made the Concordant and I am RPer. The logic is exactly the same.

[Nierr]

A large or small number of as yet unnamed Havenites who may or may not exist on this site anymore and may or may not have been organised on IRCs and sites that have nothing to do with nationstates.

Like the mainly Haven-descended SMS site.

I have no idea who any of these people are, but then, I may be out of the circle of RP these days.

There was a thing years ago that ended up with 4 of them deleted. From there they just wound down and created this SMS forum.

I thought that was the end of it but noooooooope.

[New Azura]

Wait, wait, whoa, whoa... whoa... whoa.... whoooooa...

Haven still exists? When did this happen?

[The Batorys]

It'd be an audience to a totally different game. It's more like tackling the runners on the track around the pitch.

We're all playing NationStates. Regional warfare exists and all of your nations exist in regions. These metaphors are ridiculous.

Not really. You see R/D as the central game of Nationstates.

We don't see it that way, because quite frankly, it fucking isn't. It's an unintended consequence of game mechanics, just as RP is an unintended consequence of having a nation-simulation game with fucking forums.

We're not playing R/D any more than you're posting IC in the thread I'm RPing in right now. It's just that raiders like to try to force others into their part of the game and have ways of doing that, whereas we RPers don't.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Oh, Mall, I know Paradoxia's not high on your list of regions to demolish, but I have to confess that former WAD United States of Peace (who has since CTE'd) did participate in the post-TSP coup endorsement of Milograd. Just so you have material when you get around to my region.

I mean that's good to know for future reference I guess. Not sure what it has to do with my proposal.

[Kraciva]

Wait what...what...yeah I don't think you'd find any support outside of those raiding regions...

[The Batorys]

Lots of RPers hate milograd and blame him for getting raiders involved with RP regions.

That hate is completely misplaced, and totally ignores the fact that raiders were targeting RP regions before Milograd was even a thing.

Hell, Haven was targeted for a liberation by raiders before Milograd the nation even existed. Haven was raided and griefed before Milograd's coup.

Anyone who blames Milograd for getting involved with RP regions is ignorant of history.

They blame him for more raider involvement with RPers.

It isn't the only reason they hate him. But that's not the point.

[Vetok]

Ladies and gentlemen, we are done here. Mallorea got what he wanted, which was the involvement of RP'ers in the WA forum. That's all he wanted. Let's just go home, because nothing he does will ever matter one flying fuck to any of us.

[Roania]

Well, shoot. For whatever reason I can't post with my new WA puppet. That takes the fun out of this, so... yeah. Umhm. Anyway, you know what? That's cool. Mall has sufficiently explained his grounds for this, and I believe him if he says this is a one-off thing. I still oppose it, but I'm glad to see that there's some consideration going on here.

[Rephesus]

Oh, Mall, I know Paradoxia's not high on your list of regions to demolish, but I have to confess that former WAD United States of Peace (who has since CTE'd) did participate in the post-TSP coup endorsement of Milograd. Just so you have material when you get around to my region.

I mean that's good to know for future reference I guess. Not sure what it has to do with my proposal.

It has to do with the fact that you're targeting RPing regular based on isolated incidents of indirect participation, and Password protected ones at that.

[Nierr]

The members of the Concordat who signed on to support raiders do. But TSP wasn't a raid, it was a coup, a coup backed by around two hundred RP'ers, including some from Haven and Haven's express approval.

You are completely ignoring the other major faction there: the leftists. Embassies (which is by your own logic how we define support and being 'in on it') with The Internationale, Antifa and the Red Fleet say it all.


And I'd wager they contributed a damn site more WAs than RPers.

[Ambroscus Koth]

It's a shame you've all been lied to over the years, being told you don't have to participate in gameplay, because it's functionally inaccurate. Can't help that, Maltropia.

I understand I don't have to target your group of players, Miehm. That's what makes it fun. I don't enjoy being told not to eat the forbidden fruit.

Actually, you really don't. I have this nation, Oroloo, in a dead region that got invaded. I was perfectly fine, still able to RP and such as with no consequence. So, yeah, you /can/ ignore gameplay. The problem is that regions make it easier to coordinate RPs. Thus, we try to keep them as separate from R/N/D as much as we can.

I'll admit that you have a good point though, we are not separate from gameplay, hell, it's why passwords and founders exist in our regions. However, is it too much to ask raiders to leave RPers alone? Is taking over an RP region, a solely RP region, really worth that much to you?

I never said you don't have the option to ignore Gameplay. I only said that it's inaccurate that you are not participating.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Ladies and gentlemen, we are done here. Mallorea got what he wanted, which was the involvement of RP'ers in the WA forum. That's all he wanted. Let's just go home, because nothing he does will ever matter one flying fuck to any of us.

... What? This is about Liberating Haven. Feel free to depart though, if you do not wish to debate the issue.

I mean that's good to know for future reference I guess. Not sure what it has to do with my proposal.

It has to do with the fact that you're targeting RPing regular based on isolated incidents of indirect participation, and Password protected ones at that.

Again not entirely correct.

[Voltrovia]

While I am an RPer I have one or two things to say:

Most RPers don't hate Gameplay. Most RPers aren't involved in Gameplay. Most RPers don't really care that much at all about Gameplay (much as most Gameplayers don't care about RP). And that's perfectly fine.

But if you try to force them to get involved in Gameplay by liberating and raiding an RP region (on what still seems like an incoherent basis) they will respond extremely negatively and with genuine anger and outrage. Ergo - the responses in this thread.

It isn't that the RP community (of Haven in particular) are working against raiders (or defenders for that matter), it's more that the vast majority simply wish to be left alone, regardless of the justifications for or arguments against this liberation proposal.

[Novar Ohan]

I'd like to thank Mallorea and Riva for making this possible. Anyway, I oppose this resolution, blah blah blah, regional sovereignty concerns, etc.

[Rephesus]

Ladies and gentlemen, we are done here. Mallorea got what he wanted, which was the involvement of RP'ers in the WA forum. That's all he wanted. Let's just go home, because nothing he does will ever matter one flying fuck to any of us.

... What? This is about Liberating Haven. Feel free to depart though, if you do not wish to debate the issue.

It has to do with the fact that you're targeting RPing regular based on isolated incidents of indirect participation, and Password protected ones at that.

Again not entirely correct.

So it's partially correct. Nice to see a moderator deflecting arguments instead of addressing them.

[The Batorys]

You know that I know various RP'ers in here were in there right? So hearing certain people claim that they hate Milo and never get involved is really fascinating.
People don't get to flame their way out of aspects of the game.
What's your point? It CTE after the coup... it participated in the coup... longtime resident of haven... Just like I said.

I've never heard of Milograd, and I've been playing this game a lot longer than you. Had someone come up to me and told me to get involved in R&D because he wanted to launch some imaginary coup in a feeder region, I'd tell him to fuck off and call down the fires of hell upon his cause. I'd probably warn everyone about it just to rub salt in his wounds.

I'm involved in this solely because I loathe R&D, and its players. And I have to admit it's not much of a reason, but it's better than the reason you've proposed for starting this.

Yep, this.


The RP community is not monolithic. It is huge, and not everyone knows everyone or has even heard of everyone. Like I've never heard of you before this thread, despite you being around here even longer than me.

But it's a safe bet that the vast majority want to be able to opt-out of R/D if we don't want to participate in that.

[Oseato]

Plus lets not forget you've still provided no proof that Haven was even remotely involved. And again, even if one or two Havenites were involved, that doesn't justify stripping them of their region. And can we stop calling this "Liberate Haven"? It's pretty clear that this is a Raid, not a Liberation.

You mean like besides the embassy which was given during the coup in exchange for support?

Mallorea, I am in Anarchy right now endorsing a Raider delegate as part of an agreement with several raiding groups. Granted, I won't be there much longer, but that's where I've been for the past couple months. So doesn't that mean that the RP community supports the Raiders? By your Aristotelian quality logic.

The members of the Concordat who signed on to support raiders do. But TSP wasn't a raid, it was a coup, a coup backed by around two hundred RP'ers, including some from Haven and Haven's express approval.

Can you provide me with evidence, either on the Haven forums, RMB, whatever, of this "expressed approval" you claim?

[The Batorys]

You know that I know various RP'ers in here were in there right? So hearing certain people claim that they hate Milo and never get involved is really fascinating.

Hey, here's a thought...name them. Go on. I'm up all night doing other stuff so I've got all the time in the world.

What's your point? It CTE after the coup... it participated in the coup... longtime resident of haven... Just like I said.

One name. One. One name to justify fucking over an entire region? Pathetic.

I know, right?

We don't always see eye to eye, but I think we can agree that this is fucking bullshit.

[Mini Miehm]

Ladies and gentlemen, we are done here. Mallorea got what he wanted, which was the involvement of RP'ers in the WA forum. That's all he wanted. Let's just go home, because nothing he does will ever matter one flying fuck to any of us.

... What? This is about Liberating Haven. Feel free to depart though, if you do not wish to debate the issue.

It has to do with the fact that you're targeting RPing regular based on isolated incidents of indirect participation, and Password protected ones at that.

Again not entirely correct.

This is about you trolling roleplayers for kicks. Stahp. Srsly.

[Vetok]

Ladies and gentlemen, we are done here. Mallorea got what he wanted, which was the involvement of RP'ers in the WA forum. That's all he wanted. Let's just go home, because nothing he does will ever matter one flying fuck to any of us.

... What? This is about Liberating Haven. Feel free to depart though, if you do not wish to debate the issue.

Ironic given that you've not posted a shred of evidence and the one name you gave was someone who CTE'd in December 2013 and only refounded after you posted this proposal.

Admit it! It's total horsecrap! You have no evidence for this whatsoever, and are grasping at imaginary straws.

[The Batorys]

It's a shame you've all been lied to over the years, being told you don't have to participate in gameplay, because it's functionally inaccurate. Can't help that, Maltropia.

I understand I don't have to target your group of players, Miehm. That's what makes it fun. I don't enjoy being told not to eat the forbidden fruit.

Again with the rhetoric that sounds eerily like something a rapist would say.

[Syndication]

You're damn skippy I'm angry. The delegates of the GCRs, whatever the hell those are, because I have no idea, can be assured that if they stop fucking with us, I will have absolutely zerofucks to give about raiding and gameplay in general.

Game Created Regions. The Pacific, The North Pacific, The East Pacific, The South Pacific, The West Pacific, The Rejected Realms, Lazarus, Osiris and Balder. So Delegates of said regions.

When we have mods specifically targeting us for harassment, I will not only get angry, but I will advocate for the destruction of the entire gameplay segment of this site, if that's what it takes for people to just leave us alone.

That's not very nice. We love our mods. <3

The quickest way to keep roleplayers from advocatng against the portion of the game that others enjoy is to quit trying to drag us forcefully into it. We don't want to be involved, so quit trying to involve us.

Can't we all just get along?

Don't be shocked when we get extremely pissed off about it. Just as pissed off as the GCRs are liable to get when we advocate getting rid of R/D.

Why would you want to do that? That makes NS fun for those who take part.

"Let's get together and feel all right..."