Infantry Discussion Thread 10: Shovel Edition [NO FWORDS]

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

*manly man

[Husseinarti]

This needs to be put in the fucking OP.

[Gallia-]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LyYD166ync

"Propaganda to promote wasteful arms spending which has a terribly negative net present value. If the average citizen owned a nuclear missile it wouldn't pay him interest like a corporate bond. Instead he would have to pay maintenance costs to store it. War socialism is the worst of all the ism's because it provides nothing, and further it just steals from humanity for far into the future."

the only suitable description for the best ad

[Fordorsia]

This needs to be put in the fucking OP.

err lee errmy clearly knows more than this dumbass fake veteran

[Sevvania]

This needs to be put in the fucking OP.

err lee errmy clearly knows more than this dumbass fake veteran

Do not count the days, do not count the miles. Count only the number of melons you have killed.

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

(Image)

ultimate infantryman

but someone told me m48a5 is superior

[Kazarogkai]

The DP was issued to, on paper, every Soviet Infantry squad. In reality this was not the case but the DP could be found virtually always at two per Platoon at minimum.

This is gonna sound unrelated and admittedly kinda is to your rather impressive sperg but might I ask what would be the normal number of LMGs one would have in a platoon at the time period? Seems to be you are implying that 2 is the rough minimum one would/should have at the time period. Originally I had only 2 LMGs in the entire platoon as standard but feeling that it was not enough and combine that with some RP narrative, rifle vs MG faction, increased that to 4 LMGs. Mind you my platoons are well... rather small standing at about 36 total. Based them off a slightly stripped down Italian platoon to be honest.

[Puzikas]

This needs to be put in the fucking OP.

This is information from his book in video form which is one of the reasons I know as much of machine gonz as I do.

2 LMGs in the entire platoon as standard but feeling that it was not enough and combine that with some RP narrative, rifle vs MG faction, increased that to 4 LMGs. Mind you my platoons are well... rather small standing at about 36 total. Based them off a slightly stripped down Italian platoon to be honest.

Well your first problem is using Italian derived anything tbh.

The Soviets had a material issue which meant not every squad got the DP, but every Platoon had a pair of them at least.

Every squad aught to have a base of fire to work with, or at least the Platoon should be able to fill a role to supress the enemy and provide covering fire.

Too bad RPD didn't get its glory in WWII or you could have seen coolest tactics for coolest LMG ;-;

marching fire more like running fire?

Yes.

[Kazarogkai]

2 LMGs in the entire platoon as standard but feeling that it was not enough and combine that with some RP narrative, rifle vs MG faction, increased that to 4 LMGs. Mind you my platoons are well... rather small standing at about 36 total. Based them off a slightly stripped down Italian platoon to be honest.

Well your first problem is using Italian derived anything tbh.

The Soviets had a material issue which meant not every squad got the DP, but every Platoon had a pair of them at least.

Every squad aught to have a base of fire to work with, or at least the Platoon should be able to fill a role to supress the enemy and provide covering fire.

I know it's an issue lol

For some reason though I just liked the structure of the thing, my alteration involved cutting it down somewhat reducing the squad size from 20 men with 2 LMGs to 12 men with 2 LMGs, also I changed the organization slightly. The overall platoon format is pretty reminiscent of it though.

If your wondering why the 2 LMGs in a squad/section the general justification I have is that after a recent combat experience the Kaza general staff worked on ways to strengthen their forces and settled into 3 camps: Machine Gun, Rifle, and Motor Factions. The MG faction believed that the MG was the most important part of the section and by far the most necessary to improve upon in order to strengthen it; their plan was to either add more LMGs to the section. The Rifle faction believed the main focus should instead be switched over to the rifle with their solution being to do what others were doing and start developing and fielding a semi-automatic rifle. In contrast the Motor faction believed that the firepower of the current section was good enough as it was and what they really needed was to improve it's mobility. Eventually MG faction won out with their main argument being all that would be required to implement their idea would be for them to simply add more of what they already had. In contrast the Rifle factions demands would from a resource perspective be far more intensive requiring the armed forces to develop, make, and equip their entire force with an entirely new weapon. In order to further seal the deal the MG faction in part sided with the Motor faction promising to implement their ideas of a more mobile force in the future. In the meantime they added more cavalry divisions to sweeten the deal and shut them up for a bit.

That is more or less how it went. Strange and improbable but whatever.

[Aqizithiuda]

Also, tube and yoke: linen or leather?

Good question. I've been looking around on various sites and it just doesn't seem there's been a comprehensive study done on Greek torso armor. There is more evidence for linen than what Lindybeige suggests, a good deal more - however, it was probably stitched rather than glued; the Mediterranean sun is hot, but what's hotter is the deserts of Egypt, the Middle East, and maybe modern-day Tajikistan and Pakistan, all places Alexander went to(although I admit I have been to none of these places so if anyone has different experiences let me know). I'm pretty certain there's not much debate that spearheads were generally attached with a stout pitch-like tar, but that too may have come off in hot climes. Unsure.

I personally believe - although I have nothing to back it up so take it as you will - that both leather and linen were used. Both can be made into strong armor. I've held leather armor used in SCA heavy combat, and that stuff would certainly stop a kopis chop or spear thrust, if that's anything like what went into Renaissance buff coats or Greek body armor it would be very strong, especially when combined with scale armor as it often was. There's been plenty of tests done showing that layered linen is similarly great at stopping attacks; so I believe that both were viable materials for Greeks to make armor out of, just like nowadays there's no one perfect formula for making armor.

So, uh, I've found some really interesting tests, articles and theses that may offer some broad information about various performance of leather vs linen, but I'm going to need to do a good bit more reading to properly collate it all, and I need to do a bit of searching on the RAT forums for some more specialised info.

Looks like this will be a weekend job.

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

Good question. I've been looking around on various sites and it just doesn't seem there's been a comprehensive study done on Greek torso armor. There is more evidence for linen than what Lindybeige suggests, a good deal more - however, it was probably stitched rather than glued; the Mediterranean sun is hot, but what's hotter is the deserts of Egypt, the Middle East, and maybe modern-day Tajikistan and Pakistan, all places Alexander went to(although I admit I have been to none of these places so if anyone has different experiences let me know). I'm pretty certain there's not much debate that spearheads were generally attached with a stout pitch-like tar, but that too may have come off in hot climes. Unsure.

I personally believe - although I have nothing to back it up so take it as you will - that both leather and linen were used. Both can be made into strong armor. I've held leather armor used in SCA heavy combat, and that stuff would certainly stop a kopis chop or spear thrust, if that's anything like what went into Renaissance buff coats or Greek body armor it would be very strong, especially when combined with scale armor as it often was. There's been plenty of tests done showing that layered linen is similarly great at stopping attacks; so I believe that both were viable materials for Greeks to make armor out of, just like nowadays there's no one perfect formula for making armor.

So, uh, I've found some really interesting tests, articles and theses that may offer some broad information about various performance of leather vs linen, but I'm going to need to do a good bit more reading to properly collate it all, and I need to do a bit of searching on the RAT forums for some more specialised info.

Looks like this will be a weekend job.

Yummy.

I recently got Alexander the Great and the Logistics of the Macedonian Army. Only about twenty or thirty pages in so far but it's surprisingly readable. Also, the Ancient Warfare Magazine is pretty cool.

[Aqizithiuda]

So, uh, I've found some really interesting tests, articles and theses that may offer some broad information about various performance of leather vs linen, but I'm going to need to do a good bit more reading to properly collate it all, and I need to do a bit of searching on the RAT forums for some more specialised info.

Looks like this will be a weekend job.

Yummy.

I recently got Alexander the Great and the Logistics of the Macedonian Army. Only about twenty or thirty pages in so far but it's surprisingly readable. Also, the Ancient Warfare Magazine is pretty cool.

It's a great read. Later work has shown that Engels overestimated what a horse or mule would be fed in grain by twice what most historical sources say, but that just increases the amount of fodder needed on the desert crossings by another ten pounds per animal.

Also, Engels got it absolutely right when it comes to the issued rations: it's less than a starvation ration, whatever Roth thinks.

[Gallia-]

(Image)

ultimate infantryman

but someone told me m48a5 is superior

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

b-but muh austere fighters

[Gallia-]

austerity is PC for "death trap"

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

it's like you just love deficit spending

speaking of did you see the B-21?

more specifically the names suggested?

H O L E I N T H E S K Y T O T H R O W M O N E Y I N T O

[Crookfur]

decided to havea wee play with my old E7 rifle thing.

Now available in 5.56mm with 20" barrel for winrars!

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

That stock looks like it'd slice your shoulder open.

[Crookfur]

That stock looks like it'd slice your shoulder open.

Probabaly but i'm crap at drawing stocks that aren't old and wooden

[Puzikas]

it's like you just love deficit spending

speaking of did you see the B-21?

more specifically the names suggested?

H O L E I N T H E S K Y T O T H R O W M O N E Y I N T O

I'm a fan of Wall Builder, myself.

[Gallia-]

B-21 LeMay was actually the top pick, but Air Force staff were worried people might think they're the Army if they named things after generals.

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

Yummy.

I recently got Alexander the Great and the Logistics of the Macedonian Army. Only about twenty or thirty pages in so far but it's surprisingly readable. Also, the Ancient Warfare Magazine is pretty cool.

It's a great read. Later work has shown that Engels overestimated what a horse or mule would be fed in grain by twice what most historical sources say, but that just increases the amount of fodder needed on the desert crossings by another ten pounds per animal.

Also, Engels got it absolutely right when it comes to the issued rations: it's less than a starvation ration, whatever Roth thinks.

What tickles me most is the large amount of work done to study the Roman army; not without reason, as it takes more than a few logistical geniuses to muster what Rome could at its height. But the Macedonian army under Philip and Alexander seems to generally be a footnote, underneath some sparing detail of why Alexander is called the Great. In ten years they went far farther east than Rome ever dreamt, and I personally have little doubt that had Alexander lived long enough to set his sights on the west he would have made it. Even with what they did do, a lot more credit should be given to Philip, Alexander, and their generals for planning and executing a military expedition that hasn't really ever been matched in terms of what it accomplished. I know I tend to buy into the romance of Alexander more so than the more pessimistic works done about him, but I contend the most nonbiased of historians would, upon reviewing the facts, agree that the stars really aligned for the Macedonians between Philip's early years and the death of Alexander.

[The Kievan People]

Blame the Macedonians for not writing enough about themselves.

[Fordorsia]

Macedonians were pretty dumb tbh. They should have anticipated Rome and dropped the phalanx long before they got fucked by it.

Shield Turtle > All

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

Blame the Macedonians for not writing enough about themselves.

They did write a lot, but a lot was destroyed. Most of the sources we have for them(Arrian, Plutarch, etc.) themselves used sources closer to Alexander, sometimes even contemporaries like Ptolemy or Aristobulus of Cassandreia. I blame early Christians for hating cool stuff.

Macedonians were pretty dumb tbh. They should have anticipated Rome and dropped the phalanx long before they got fucked by it.

Shield Turtle > All

I actually have a lot to say regarding sarissas vs legionaries, which I've probably touched on before. The tl;dr version is Romans did beat pike phalanxes, but generally it was a very close-run affair, and in the many engagements not as well known as Pydna or Cynoscephalae the Romans are entirely unable to contend the battlefield against the phalanxes.