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Infantry Discussion Thread 9: Parabellum [NO KAIJU]

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No step on snek

Reeeeeeeeeee
4
8%
Oh fug :D DDDDD
2
4%
10mm best mm
5
9%
Ford should stop posting swords
16
30%
Puz is eternal leader of IDT
17
32%
Kyiv is not actually a tank but instead is a man trapped inside a tanks body
5
9%
Other assorted memes
4
8%
 
Total votes : 53

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Crookfur
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Postby Crookfur » Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:44 pm

Kazarogkai wrote:
Crookfur wrote:Hihgly variable and different in every army and the terms are often all over the place, in british use A company was the administrative subsection of the battalion but the platoon was it tactical role.

However as a simplified general a platoon was half a company and a section was half a platoon

As such at max strangth of 1000men a british battalion would look soemthign like:
10 companies of 100 men each
20 Sub-divsions of 50 (what we would call a platoon these days)
40 sections of 25

so your basic answer is about 50 and about 25


10 separate companies seems a little high unless were talking about the mongols here with their base-10 loving selves. I had though that a commander should not command more than 5 sub units was common knowledge by the time of the Napoleonic era which I took into account when coming up with my military organization.

A British battalion was 8 line companies plus grenadier and light companies. It would typically split into two grand divisions.

8 was the more typical number of companies in a European battalion.
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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:48 pm

I was wondering. Would grouping the IFV's of a mechanized infantry platoon be a bad idea? I am talking about a situation where the official TOE has the infantry squads separate from their vehicles and all the vehicles bunched into an IFV section at the platoon level. Something like this:

Platoon HQ
Platoon IFV Section (IFV x N)
Infantry Squad x N

What would be the downsides of such an arrangement?
Last edited by Purpelia on Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:38 pm

Theodosiya wrote:
Gallia- wrote:Which is why I said Milans for the sections, and Javelins in some sort of battalion anti-tank platoon.

If money isn't really an object, then Javelins everywhere is the obvious best decision.

e: Even Javelins in the RWS like Stryker.

Mix of Javelin and Spike or TOW.


That's fine.

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Aqizithiuda
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Postby Aqizithiuda » Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:01 pm

The Kievan People wrote:Waste of time.


I disagree. Based on the 14.5x114mm MDZ projectile, which I estimate has between 4 and 4.2 grams of HE (at least 1.6g more than the 12.7mm variants), I'd say that a 15.5mm projectile with 5 grams of HE is not unreasonable. Given that 6g of TNT is considered adequate for HEI rounds, and that these are the most common 20mm "HE" projectiles and the current state of aluminised RDX explosives, I think a 15.5mm HE projectile is viable, if not ideal (having less fragment mass tow ork with).
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:06 pm

Puzikas wrote:
Estovnia wrote:100%


Someone did their homework on DDR AKs.
Bravo.


The Kievan People wrote:Milan would be literally dumb.


Full stop
Milan a shit
Stupid name
Stupid frog missile
Red dragon pls go

Why are you even talking about ATGMs, aren't you supposed to be, like, scared of them?


>marder 1 tho

why would "viky" be afraid of missiles made by white people? special armor > atgw

unless that atgw is top attack

notice how he never mentions "HJ-12" at all in this discussion? clear evidence
Last edited by Gallia- on Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:31 pm

Alright people. It's infantry question time.

Ninja in your infantry and army. Are there any? How if at all are they used? And do they follow the teachings of Grandmaster Ashida Kim, the greatest ninja master ever to have walked the earth?
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Kassaran
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Postby Kassaran » Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:40 pm

Ninja as in highly trained specialists in assassination and various assassinations techniques to be utilized in assymetrical warfare scenarios like dispatching hostile enemy commanders or leaders? Sure, we have them and they do act as part of the military, just under the command of Special Interests Warfare.
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Husseinarti
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Postby Husseinarti » Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:40 pm

Purpelia wrote:Alright people. It's infantry question time.

Ninja in your infantry and army. Are there any? How if at all are they used? And do they follow the teachings of Grandmaster Ashida Kim, the greatest ninja master ever to have walked the earth?


we don't enlist the filthy peasantry to engage in sensitive operations.

we aren't like those damn nippons we fought and blew up in the 1940s.

and 1950s

and 1960s

and 1970s

and 1980s.

rip azns
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Sevvania
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Postby Sevvania » Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:48 pm

Still in hospital. They put a robit in my chest. Miss u.
xo

Have some tiny infantry:
Image
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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:50 pm

Sevvania wrote:Still in hospital. They put a robit in my chest. Miss u.
xo

Have some tiny infantry:
(Image)

CUTE!
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Fordorsia
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Postby Fordorsia » Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:02 pm

Kassaran wrote:highly trained


Trust a pleb to exaggerate the abilities of a pleb

Sevvania wrote:Still in hospital. They put a robit in my chest. Miss u.
xo

Have some tiny infantry:
(Image)


Puz can fix you with his soft gentle hands
Last edited by Fordorsia on Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Spirit of Hope
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Postby Spirit of Hope » Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:32 pm

Sevvania wrote:Still in hospital. They put a robit in my chest. Miss u.
xo

Have some tiny infantry:
(Image)

Sevvania, officially a cyborg circa 3/7/2016.

Also those are cute.
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Rhodesialund
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Postby Rhodesialund » Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:33 pm

Ok, now I can feel the mind of a madwoman working.

Three words here folks, Anti-Vehicular Gyrojet. That's right, a shoulder-mounted Anti-Vehicular device that launches Gyrojets towards enemy tanks, technicals, or structures. 8)


http://i.imgur.com/u3WmV.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/g8a3A.jpg


Tell me, good idea or shall it remain forever a pipe dream of the 1950's with combating the scourge of communism. :lol:
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EsToVnIa
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Postby EsToVnIa » Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:35 pm

I mean

what does a gyrojet offer that a missile doesn't

this is an incredibly purpelian idea
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Spirit of Hope
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Postby Spirit of Hope » Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:36 pm

Rhodesialund wrote:Ok, now I can feel the mind of a madwoman working.

Three words here folks, Anti-Vehicular Gyrojet. That's right, a shoulder-mounted Anti-Vehicular device that launches Gyrojets towards enemy tanks, technicals, or structures. 8)


http://i.imgur.com/u3WmV.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/g8a3A.jpg


Tell me, good idea or shall it remain forever a pipe dream of the 1950's with combating the scourge of communism. :lol:

I mean, wouldn't those just be regular rockets? With some modifications to fire from a gun barrel instead of some other method?
Sounds like it would be just as feasible as a regular rocket system.
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Rhodesialund
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Postby Rhodesialund » Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:42 pm

Estovnia wrote:I mean

what does a gyrojet offer that a missile doesn't

this is an incredibly purpelian idea


Shush, I'm trying to out-Purp Purpelian while having such a plausible concept that could be adopted. :p
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:55 pm

Estovnia wrote:I mean

what does a gyrojet offer that a missile doesn't


Rate of fire is a rocket gun's advantage over more conventional guns.

The various rocket guns the USAF built in the 1950s were only ~40mm give or take anyway. There was 38mm, there was 40mm, and 5-something-mm which I'm sure "Dnt" has pictures of, and maybe a few others? Gyrojets were built up to 20mm or something by MBA, too.

More interesting was the various light gas guns the USAF and US Army looked at, and Dale Davis discusses the former a bit.

Rhodesialund wrote:Ok, now I can feel the mind of a madwoman working.

Three words here folks, Anti-Vehicular Gyrojet. That's right, a shoulder-mounted Anti-Vehicular device that launches Gyrojets towards enemy tanks, technicals, or structures. 8)


America beat you to it:

Image
Last edited by Gallia- on Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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EsToVnIa
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Postby EsToVnIa » Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:57 pm

i know rate of fire was better, but does that matter since it's single shot
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Rhodesialund
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Postby Rhodesialund » Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:01 pm

Gallia- wrote:
America beat you to it:

(Image)


However, the rocket motor burns out completely before it reaches the muzzle of the launcher. I'm thinking of keeping true to the gyrojet idea of a rocket motor that continues until it burns out after a certain distance, picking up speed the further it goes.
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:14 pm

Estovnia wrote:i know rate of fire was better, but does that matter since it's single shot


No. It matters for aircraft needing to strafe ground targets, though.

Or rather, it did.

Rhodesialund wrote:
Gallia- wrote:
America beat you to it:

(Image)


However, the rocket motor burns out completely before it reaches the muzzle of the launcher. I'm thinking of keeping true to the gyrojet idea of a rocket motor that continues until it burns out after a certain distance, picking up speed the further it goes.


A fast motor burnout increases the distance you can engage the tank without needing to guide the rocket, so it's going to happen anyway.

You can make it spin with canted exhaust ports, hence the "gyro-" part, but folding fins are probably less time consuming to manufacture than machined/drilled rocket ports.

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Crookfur
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Postby Crookfur » Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:17 pm

Purpelia wrote:Alright people. It's infantry question time.

Ninja in your infantry and army. Are there any? How if at all are they used? And do they follow the teachings of Grandmaster Ashida Kim, the greatest ninja master ever to have walked the earth?

No because the Crookfur Armed forces are not made up of 14 year olds watching badly transcoded YouTube videos made from hideous quality but hysterically funny vhs instructional videos.

Also ghillies and Jagers are a billion times better than any silly eastern nonsense.
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Kassaran
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Postby Kassaran » Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:23 pm

Fordorsia wrote:
Kassaran wrote:highly trained


Trust a pleb to exaggerate the abilities of a pleb


Husseinarti wrote:
we don't enlist the filthy peasantry to engage in sensitive operations.

we aren't like those damn nippons we fought and blew up in the 1940s.

and 1950s

and 1960s

and 1970s

and 1980s.

rip azns


Were they not expected to perfect seven basic forms of self concealment, be able to infiltrate enemy ranks and lines for the purposes of intelligence gathering and misinformation? The methodology of ninja were likely closer to that of CIA or MI6 methods than any wannabe mall ninja nowadays. The idea that 'ninja are just angry peasants' is as wrong as 'ninja are godlike beings of death'. They were the age-correct special operations personnel operating within the various shogunates attempting to lessen the toll of deaths not only upon their allied armies, but also the land.

By perfecting basic disguises and the art of changing one's appearance to suit was key. Then, taking into consideration the knowledge of the time, they were highly skilled in the art of deception and blending in, not turning invisible and killing. Killing just so happens to be easier and so when need be, a disguised ninja could 'appear out of nowhere' by already being present in the crowd and then 'disappear in plain sight'.

Not to mention, but when you are using intelligence gathering, it's best to also use the art of misinformation to dissuade or bait attack. Appear as a false scout or local villager to a lord to warn or inform of impending or waning resistance and you can change the tide of a war. In one particular case, a tale of several dozens of ninja [read as intelligence or special forces operators nowadays] infiltrating a hostile castle to rescue a family of royals dressed as the hostile castle's own defenders lead to confusion in their ranks. The castle believed it suddenly had spawned a multitude of traitors within its own ranks and this obviously would have lasting repercussions in the resulting witch-hunts and inquisitions inside the castle's own walls.

EDIT: While I have mentioned assassination as a specific usage of 'ninja' within my nation, I do recognize that they were used in other fashions and that my previous statement only covered the popular western conception of how they were used.
Last edited by Kassaran on Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Zarkenis Ultima wrote:Tristan noticed footsteps behind him and looked there, only to see Eric approaching and then pointing his sword at the girl. He just blinked a few times at this before speaking.

"Put that down, Mr. Eric." He said. "She's obviously not a chicken."
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Rhodesialund
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Postby Rhodesialund » Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:29 pm

Gallia- wrote:
A fast motor burnout increases the distance you can engage the tank without needing to guide the rocket, so it's going to happen anyway.

You can make it spin with canted exhaust ports, hence the "gyro-" part, but folding fins are probably less time consuming to manufacture than machined/drilled rocket ports.


http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9365


Rather stupid-simple to manufacture though from the looks of it.
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:36 pm

Rhodesialund wrote:
Gallia- wrote:
A fast motor burnout increases the distance you can engage the tank without needing to guide the rocket, so it's going to happen anyway.

You can make it spin with canted exhaust ports, hence the "gyro-" part, but folding fins are probably less time consuming to manufacture than machined/drilled rocket ports.


http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9365


Rather stupid-simple to manufacture though from the looks of it.


Those aren't Gyrojets for one thing, they're a USAF-designed (AFAIK?) 38mm rocket that used a powder charge to assist in gaining initial velocity. They're also really big, which helps a lot with machining. They were spin-stabilized like Gyrojet, but Gyrojet was always really about the small arms more than anything anyway.

There were 30mm and 40mm Gyrojets. There was a 30mm recoilless rocket gun proposed by MBA (idk if it was built I don't have the book [yet]) for shooting lots of various rockets (flares, chaff, explosives, etc.) that went nowhere, and it's doubtful that a 30mm HEAT rocket would be much of any utility whatsoever anyway, certainly not for an anti-tank weapon where you're looking at a 90-120mm diameter warhead to be reasonably useful.

Anyway there are already rocket assisted rounds for 84mm Carl Gustav, and any sort of "rocket gun" would resemble something like a 90mm or 84mm recoilless rifle, not a Gyrojet. A not-crew-served rocket gun would be an M72 LAW or a AT-4. Tl;dr these things already exist.
Last edited by Gallia- on Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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The Kievan People
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Postby The Kievan People » Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:40 pm

Aqizithiuda wrote:
The Kievan People wrote:Waste of time.


I disagree. Based on the 14.5x114mm MDZ projectile, which I estimate has between 4 and 4.2 grams of HE (at least 1.6g more than the 12.7mm variants), I'd say that a 15.5mm projectile with 5 grams of HE is not unreasonable. Given that 6g of TNT is considered adequate for HEI rounds, and that these are the most common 20mm "HE" projectiles and the current state of aluminised RDX explosives, I think a 15.5mm HE projectile is viable, if not ideal (having less fragment mass tow ork with).


But that is a friction/compression ignited fuze isn't it?

Without a mechanical super-quick fuze it will not explode until it has begun burying itself into something. Fine if you are shooting up aircraft or similar targets, not fine if you are trying to kill infantry in the open.
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