Infantry Discussion Thread 9: Parabellum [NO KAIJU]

[Laritaia]

what's the point having a razor sharp blade when you're opponent is wearing full plate.

Let me rephrase this another way:

What's the point of having AP ammunition if the armor of the best tank on the battlefield won't be scratched by it?

I think the answer is pretty obvious.

My point was that having a sword that's overly sharp doesn't really offer any advantage over a more resilient edge. The edges on European swords may not have been touch it and you cut yourself sharp but they would still take an arm off when swung hard enough.

sharpening them further would have been a lot of wasted effort.

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

Let me rephrase this another way:

What's the point of having AP ammunition if the armor of the best tank on the battlefield won't be scratched by it?

I think the answer is pretty obvious.

My point was that having a sword that's overly sharp doesn't really offer any advantage over a more resilient edge. The edges on European swords may not have been touch it and you cut yourself sharp but they would still take an arm off when swung hard enough.

sharpening them further would have been a lot of wasted effort.

Why not both?

By the 15th century, Europeans had good enough steel to make sharp blades that generally wouldn't chip or break. And even a dull blade can still cut pretty well. It likely would have just been the preference of the owner.

[Fordorsia]

Let me rephrase this another way:

What's the point of having AP ammunition if the armor of the best tank on the battlefield won't be scratched by it?

I think the answer is pretty obvious.

My point was that having a sword that's overly sharp doesn't really offer any advantage over a more resilient edge. The edges on European swords may not have been touch it and you cut yourself sharp but they would still take an arm off when swung hard enough.

sharpening them further would have been a lot of wasted effort.

They were very sharp, sharp enough that running your finger along the blade would result in ouch

The sharper a sword is and the more tapered the edge is, the better it will cut. Cutting ability almost always comes before edge retention, because no blade dulls over the course of a single battle. If you can have a really sharp blade, why wouldn't have one? It just means it will perform better than a less sharp but otherwise identical blade

but they would still take an arm off when swung hard enough

That doesn't happen except outside of battle.

[Puzikas]

I've seen a few arm losses to crushing
Far more effective than slashing
Obviously best weapon is a hydrollic press.

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

it doesn't matter since swords were dull except for the last 4 inches anyway

it's true

an SCA member with 30+ years reenactment experience told me so

swords are just glorified clubs rlly

[Fordorsia]

swords are just glorified clubs rlly (Image)

except katana

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

fact: katana were used for shaving

yari, tetsubo, and masakari were used for killing

[Fordorsia]

Don't be silly Japanese people aren't manly enough to grow facial hair

[Rhodesialund]

swords are just glorified clubs rlly (Image)

except katana

http://i.imgur.com/Xpc8R8l.jpg




Katana is silly sword. Only good for castration and suicide, particularly in that order.

[The balkens]

except katana

http://i.imgur.com/Xpc8R8l.jpg




Katana is silly sword. Only good for castration and suicide, particularly in that order.

You are channeling Tsavon, holy shit.

[EsToVnIa]

katana is fine

e:

http://i.imgur.com/Xpc8R8l.jpg




Katana is silly sword. Only good for castration and suicide, particularly in that order.

You are channeling Tsavon, holy shit.

who?

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

That's strong. That's real strong.

[Fordorsia]

katana is fine

As in damn gurl u fine

[The balkens]

katana is fine

e:

You are channeling Tsavon, holy shit.

who?

He who as ascended into a higher plane of existence.

[Rhodesialund]

katana is fine

[EsToVnIa]

katana is fine

e:

who?

He who as ascended into a higher plane of existence.

you mean be repeatedly breaking the rules because he thought he was being funny so much so he got DoS?

:^)

katana is fine

tbf that's where all swords belong after like 1877

[Fordorsia]

He who as ascended into a higher plane of existence.

you mean be repeatedly breaking the rules because he thought he was being funny so much so he got DoS?

:^)

You just don't understand humour. kek trelelelelled anon

[The balkens]

If you can have a New Nicksylvania cult then we can have a Tsavon/ Corda cult

[EsToVnIa]

nobody has new nickylsvania

this isn't 2011

[Fordorsia]

who though

[EsToVnIa]

yeah exactly

[Crookfur]

For that sort of task yeah but it really just looks unwieldy as an actual weapon.

Sure. Like I said I didn't really have an aim with it. Still could look pretty scary to some shitty peasant.

unessicary

I feel your pain

And the rendering scene in Marco Polo was rather unessicary, it was like the writers suddenly remembered that they were writing about the mongols and had to make some BRUTAL! Edge Lord stuff up to counter act the rest of series which portrays them as pretty decent dudes.

Give link

Really don't want to search for it and it is very NSFW but its in Season 1 episode 8 "Rendering" if you have netflix or soem other means of watching thigns from netflix.

[Fordorsia]

Why would I have netflix I'm poor

[Purpelia]

Ford, I call you!

I would first like to make it clear that Japanese armor was made in different qualities, namely loan armor and owned armor, loan armor can be divided into two groups, ashigaru grade, and samurai grade.
These three groups of armor were of a different quality in both a metallurgical sense, as well as their construction method.

I'll start with ashigaru loan armor, from what I've personally seen and read is that these armors were of poor mass produced quality, the plates are crude in shape (as can be seen on the inside of a cuirass) and were a one size fits all, they were made of pure wrought iron plate (or hardened rawhide, Japanese armor of all qualities could be made of hardened rawhide).
Those made in the Kanto area (the area around Tokyo) have some slag inclusions (that's a bad thing, if you have a lot of these and they are somewhat large they will make steel brittle), this is because of the somewhat different smelting method used in that area compared to the South of Japan were iron and steel was almost slag free (as far as that's possible with non modern iron/steel).
From what I've seen, the amount of slag inclusions present in Japanese iron and steel is pretty much inconsequential, for comparison, large slag inclusions are very commonly present in large quantities in old European iron and steel, although this too might be quality related, as there are known cases where the slag in European iron/steel is no big deal.

As for samurai grade loan armor for the rank and file samurai infantry, I don't have much to go on here, metallographic research on these things is lacking (or I just haven't seen it yet).
From what I've seen, antique loan armor for samurai looks like decent quality, and it makes sense for it to be somewhere in between ashigaru armor and owned armor in quality.
As far as the iron/steel these armors are made of... I can only speculate here, I think it would make sense for it to be mild steel, and if it is, then they would most likely have hardened the steel as knowledge of the hardening process was common knowledge among Japanese armorers.

About owned armor for the kiba-musha (the Japanese equivalent of the European knight), this is very high grade stuff, the Chukokatchu seisakuben mentions it's hardening through tempering and quenching, this is normal, just like for swords.
The hardness varies a lot and depends on the school of armorers, like the Haruta school made very hard armor of thin plates while the Myochin school made them somewhat soft but thicker.
Individual plates were made of two piece construction, one outer piece that is made of hardened steel and faced the enemy, and another that was made of wrought iron or a low carbon steel plate (or perhaps even mild steel, this could no doubt be different for different schools and maybe even individual armorers or time periods).

The Leeds Royal Armouries have done some research into this, the link to their page with the results no longer exists (or I just can't find it), but the info still exists on the internet, I will post it here:

THE METALLURGY OF JAPANESE PLATE ARMOUR

The question:
Compared to European armour, a very limited amount of Japanese armour has been examined metallurgically. Documentary sources, such as the text of Sakikabara Kōzan published in 1800, suggest that, particularly with the introduction of firearms in the 16th-century, Japanese armourers went to considerable lengths to increase the protection offered by their armour.
Could metallographic examination of some stray plates donated for scientific analysis, tell us more about the metallurgical quality and effectiveness of Japanese armour?

Results of analysis:
This section of armour is of composite construction, comprising an outer face of steel (shown as the dark-etching phase in the micrograph above) and an inner lining of pure iron (the bright phase, ferrite). The steel is distinctly harder and tougher which would help prevent the penetration of projectiles, whilst the softer iron behind is ideal for absorbing the energy of the impact.
The content of slag inclusions is exceedingly low compared with other traditionally produced ironwork and the ferrous plate is protected from corrosion by numerous coats of lacquer.

(Image)

Significance:
This armour has clearly been constructed from two different carefully chosen and skilfully worked materials, such that even with a thickness of about 1mm the armour would provide the best possible level of protection for the wearer.
A piece of cheaper armour, examined at the same time was constructed entirely of soft iron containing many slag inclusions so the quality of armour may be very variable.

Output:
The results of this recent research were first made public in a series of talks that accompanied the Royal Armouries Shogun exhibition in 2005. A broader research project looking at the metallurgy of Japanese armour is now planned.

And here is an interesting source about mail: https://www.jim.or.jp/journal/j/pdf3/78/04/149.pdf

There was also a mask that was sold by a well known antiquarian that has the inscription: "Yoshiazu of Morioka made this in hard steel for Shimizu", https://www.pinterest.com/pin/335236765984591029/

As for differences during time periods, 16th century and later armor doesn't show any significant differences that I'm aware of, as for older armor... who knows?
Most antique armor dates from the 16th century and later, so metallographic research tends to focus on those armors.
I do not expect there to be much of a difference because the hardening process was well know in Japan throughout the history of samurai armor.

[Heavonia]

If you can have a New Nicksylvania cult then we can have a Tsavon/ Corda cult

Did Tsavon get bannded? What, when, why?

(Also, Tsavon was Bajistania or whatever, the Halo-esque nation, wasn't he?)