Infantry Discussion Thread, Mk. 8 Mod. 0 [No Kaiju]

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

Throughout Greek military history in that period, Spartan land superiority mainly revolved around the fact that everybody thought the Spartans were the baddest people around. Just as people nowadays fetishize the Spartans, so did people back then. The Spartans' actual military history is checquered, but they did win more than they lost.

In other words, from a vaguely gray area before 500 BCE to Leuktra, the Spartans were the most dangerous people around, but only because going to war with them meant going to war with the Spartans. Most people would rather not. Similar to how much of the history around the Tiger tank's dangerousness was only because everybody was pants-shittingly scared of the Tiger.

In the Peloponnesian War, the elephant went to war with the whale - few people wanted to fight the Spartans and their allies on land, while few people could afford to outfit a fleet at sea to match the Athenians. The Spartans' victory over the Athenians had more to do with Lysander getting in bed with the Persians, who did have the money to raise more fleets than the Athenians, plus the Athenian demos deciding to execute most of its best generals(like Pericles Jr).

Sparta performed best in battle when it was the corps of Spartiate citizens supported by strong-willed allies - i.e. many of the battles of the Persian Wars. Spartans never wanted an empire like the Athenians and in fact, they were notoriously slow to make any big decisions.

I knew they were all bark no bite bitch ass pussies

Not what I said.

You don't win that many battles by coincidence.

[Fordorsia]

I knew they were all bark no bite bitch ass pussies

Not what I said.

You don't win that many battles by coincidence.

Their slaves did all the work for them :>

[Aqizithiuda]

Mix of Legion and phalanx type formation?

I'm not too sure that's possible.

No, legion comes after this. This is just regular old pike lines with swordy flanks.

>front to back combs
>not side to side

απολύτως αηδιαστικό

Why would grunts have sideways crest you dumb plebeian

Basically, you need coinage, either a surplus of food or a way to import it relatively cheaply, effective taxation and good administration in order to ensure proper taxation, record acquisitions, forecast potential costs so that they can be budgeted etc, in order to maintain a standing professional army.

What about the terrain was a key factor in Fordorsia beating the Romans?

It's an island with many coastal towns and cities, so I figured there wouldn't be that many places where an invading army could land without being spotted far off, allowing for garrisons and armies to be readied. And nor would there be many spots to get a good foot hold and conduct the land attacks without being cut off easily from your only exit. You would need a huge fleet and and more than one land force to ensure that you can prevent the landing zone from being attacked after the main army has move on up the coast/inland.

And that's why I asked, because I've never really gotten a whole "pre-existing empire" thing from Ford before.

Well it's not an empire. It's just a small-ish island nation with a handwaved economy and resources :>

Unfortunately, the Romans excelled at pulling massive fleets out of their arses and were masters of fortification. Any beachhead they made would rapidly be protected by extensive earthworks and a fortress. They then would have systematically taken the coastal towns and cities, resupplying from their fleet, using a combination of land based and sea based assaults.

[Fordorsia]

cyka blyat


Actually what do you think of the formation itself? Front line of pikes, great sickles at the flanks and scattered directly behind the pikes and veteran swordsmen behind?

[Puzikas]

>Great sickles
Is there any basis in reality for those having ever been used or is that just your own design? I was always under the impression the sickle was a farmers tool through and through and only ever saw use as a weapon is pesant uprisings and were basically only improvised.

Moreover what would even be the proper way to employ usch a weapon? Would it be more used like the zweihänder?

[Aqizithiuda]

>Great sickles
Is there any basis in reality for those having ever been used or is that just your own design? I was always under the impression the sickle was a farmers tool through and through and only ever saw use as a weapon is pesant uprisings and were basically only improvised.

Moreover what would even be the proper way to employ usch a weapon? Would it be more used like the zweihänder?

I believe it's a falxification of the khopesh, an Egyptian version of the Canaanite sickle-sword.

I presume it's intended to be used in a similar roll to a great axe or halberd.

[Fordorsia]

>Great sickles
Is there any basis in reality for those having ever been used or is that just your own design? I was always under the impression the sickle was a farmers tool through and through and only ever saw use as a weapon is pesant uprisings and were basically only improvised.

Moreover what would even be the proper way to employ usch a weapon? Would it be more used like the zweihänder?

Well it's basically an upscaled khopesh with a long two handed grip. Not much else to it besides the raping spike on the back of the blade. I've never seen anything like it though.

Sickles themselves weren't combat weapons, but sickle swords resembled sickles, especially those with forward swept blades like the falcata and falx, so hence the term sickle sword.

If my limited understanding of the limited information available on the use of large two handed sword like the zweihander is anything to believe, the flanks would be a good choice. But unlike the sickle units being on each side of individual pike blocks, they would be at each end of the front line with a few units scattared right behind the pikes in case a hole opens up and they can break through and wreck shit. Pike blocks are vulnerable as shit at the sides and rear, so what better way to kill the enemy pikes than to chop at their sides and rear with huge axe swords?

Aqiz will probably correct me on the whole zweihanders attacking the flanks thing though. I just can't think of a better way they would be used against pike blocks.

[Aqizithiuda]

Zweihanders were mostly used to guard the standard and high officers. The whole combat style is basically built around defending against multiple opponents.

Halberds were typically the weapon of choice for flank attacks/defending of breaches.

[The balkens]

>Great sickles
Is there any basis in reality for those having ever been used or is that just your own design? I was always under the impression the sickle was a farmers tool through and through and only ever saw use as a weapon is pesant uprisings and were basically only improvised.

Moreover what would even be the proper way to employ usch a weapon? Would it be more used like the zweihänder?

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/oly ... 0620233712

[Fordorsia]

Zweihanders were mostly used to guard the standard and high officers. The whole combat style is basically built around defending against multiple opponents.

Halberds were typically the weapon of choice for flank attacks/defending of breaches.

So the concept fo using two handed weapons to flanks is valid, good.

Any ideas on how I should armour them?

[Aqizithiuda]

Zweihanders were mostly used to guard the standard and high officers. The whole combat style is basically built around defending against multiple opponents.

Halberds were typically the weapon of choice for flank attacks/defending of breaches.

So the concept fo using two handed weapons to flanks is valid, good.

Any ideas on how I should armour them?

Mail or leather, nothing too heavy or inflexible.

[Puzikas]

khopesh

I know this as something totally different. Gotcha.

Sickles themselves weren't combat weapons, but sickle swords resembled sickles, especially those with forward swept blades like the falcata and falx, so hence the term sickle sword.

Ah.

[Fordorsia]

So the concept fo using two handed weapons to flanks is valid, good.

Any ideas on how I should armour them?

Mail or leather, nothing too heavy or inflexible.

Would a leather cuirass with plates covering the vitals be adequate?

And I removed the curving cheek guards from their helmets, so now they only cover the sides of the face and allow perfect vision. I guess that would be better for troops getting up close.

[Kazarogkai]

So you basically were an empire/literate society with a paid professional army before encountering the Romans?

And again, the Romans were not the first to invent professional paid armies. These existed anywhere where you had an empire. Alexander had them, the Assyrians had them and virtually everyone else with dreams of empire had them. The only reason why they were not a thing in western Europe is because western Europe did in fact NOT have any empires in the pre Roman period.

So if he already had an established nation before the Romans came he could well have a standing professional army to face them. That's why Rome newer conquered Persia.

Most countries at the very least usually did not have a fully standing army but relied on a mixture of different types of troops. They usually had some type of nucleus(palace guard) which would be composed of professionals and would form the backbone of their forces and would be in themselves standing. But in times of war this nucleus was usually supplemented by mass numbers of short term conscripts and volunteers who were not standing soldiers, for all intents and purposes levys. A good example would be the Kingdom of Kongo who maintained in peace and war a force of "heavy infantry" who would when war happened be supplemented by short term levys of "light infantry". This pattern seems to be for the most part the norm outside of very large and complex empires. A standing army is possible, and having professionals be among your army is also possible, but having your entire army be standing and professional? Rare and far between. In the case of the Assyrians they did have a standing army certainly but the majority of their troops seemed to have com in form of conscripts who would be submitted to them as tribute from vassals and the like, a similar thing seems to have existed for the Persians. The Romans were a little unique having their army being composed mostly of standing professionals, but even they relied on auxiliaries supplied to them by their allies.

[Aqizithiuda]

Mail or leather, nothing too heavy or inflexible.

Would a leather cuirass with plates covering the vitals be adequate?

And I removed the curving cheek guards from their helmets, so now they only cover the sides of the face and allow perfect vision. I guess that would be better for troops getting up close.

Yep, a cuirass similar to the muscle type or the tube and yoke type would be suitable.

[Kazarogkai]

Just how much did Spartan military power compare with the other Greek states throughout the first millenium BC? There's some guy I'm arguing with who's convinced that they were always the greatest fighting force in Europe. He even referenced the Peloponnesian war to prove his point, somehow not understanding that both Sparta and Athens were drained of their resources, money and manpower by the time the war ended...Yeah, what a great and powerful military, ended it in only 27 years, good job!

Their troops were pretty good but they lacked heavily both in terms of numbers(at best they could raise maybe 8,000) and in diversity with their entire army being just heavy infantry hoplites with all the disadvantages that entails. Another issue with them was their tactics ,which they refused to change, and the fact that they needed to keep the vast majority of their troops at home otherwise they would face mass rebellion from all the helots. This all contributed to them being fine at the defense but having little force projection capabilities. They were the best in their time until time left them behind. That is what I heard anyways.

[Fordorsia]

Would a leather cuirass with plates covering the vitals be adequate?

And I removed the curving cheek guards from their helmets, so now they only cover the sides of the face and allow perfect vision. I guess that would be better for troops getting up close.

Yep, a cuirass similar to the muscle type or the tube and yoke type would be suitable.

Well the standard is a steel cuirass, but you said nothing too heavy or inflexible. Full cuirasses are neither of those.

This is what I have right now. The cuirass is hardened leather with a single steel plate on the front. The mid section is chain mail all the way around allowing for full mobility while being reasonably protected.

And of course a big fucking sword.

[Aqizithiuda]

Yep, a cuirass similar to the muscle type or the tube and yoke type would be suitable.

Well the standard is a steel cuirass, but you said nothing too heavy or inflexible. Full cuirasses are neither of those.

This is what I have right now. The cuirass is hardened leather with a single steel plate on the front. The mid section is chain mail all the way around allowing for full mobility while being reasonably protected.

And of course a big fucking sword.

I wouldn't bother with the iron plate, javelins or greaves. The point is to provide them with some protection, but to leave them unencumbered enough to move more rapidly than heavily armoured troops/to have better stamina.

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

ford confirmed for idiot

cloaks in the ancient world were always pinned at the shoulder

[Fordorsia]

Well the standard is a steel cuirass, but you said nothing too heavy or inflexible. Full cuirasses are neither of those.

This is what I have right now. The cuirass is hardened leather with a single steel plate on the front. The mid section is chain mail all the way around allowing for full mobility while being reasonably protected.

And of course a big fucking sword.

I wouldn't bother with the iron plate, javelins or greaves. The point is to provide them with some protection, but to leave them unencumbered enough to move more rapidly than heavily armoured troops/to have better stamina.

shazam

So how do you think they would fair against a Roman army? The sickle definitely puts them far outside the reach of a gladius.

But I guess they'd still need the support of cavalry, seeing as though Roman armies had plenty of reserves that would react to their front line getting flanked.

ford confirmed for idiot

cloaks in the ancient world were always pinned at the shoulder

I dun give a fuck nigga

[Puzikas]

Wow
Reported for not giving a fuck
U savage

[Fordorsia]

im hardcore

[Husseinarti]

So how do you think they would fair against a Roman army? The sickle definitely puts them far outside the reach of a gladius.

But I guess they'd still need the support of cavalry, seeing as though Roman armies had plenty of reserves that would react to their front line getting flanked.

He gets hit by a pila from like 15 meters.

He stumbles over just in time to meet the brunt of a giant fucking shield into his face.

He gets knocked down as the rest of his men are rekt'd by some fags from Magna Greacia.

[Fordorsia]

sheeeit

[Laritaia]

the Legionary's fuck off big sheild and javelins is going to negate the reach advantage somewhat.