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NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Type 08

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Forenet Skandinavien
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Founded: Jan 04, 2014
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Postby Forenet Skandinavien » Mon May 18, 2015 6:47 pm

The Akasha Colony wrote:
Forenet Skandinavien wrote:My country has good infrastructure, both civilian and military, though ten million may be a bit much for it to handle in the course of six months. Perhaps, parts of the total conscripted force are trained every six months, so that, say, 1.25 million soldiers get trained every six months, so not to overwhelm the training depots. Would that be plausible for a modern, first-world superpower?


It would be more than a ten-fold increase. The US military takes in roughly 150,000 new recruits annually. Going to 2.5 million would be no easy feat.

The problem is that some specialties take much longer to train than others. Artillerymen take longer to train than infantrymen. But you need artillerymen otherwise you end up with a bunch of infantrymen with no support. Some are also more resource intensive than others. You can shorten the training regimes of course, and probably would have to, but this would likely have negative effects on the competency of the troops in their given specialty.


So, would it be realistic to train, in a situation of necessity such as this, 300,000 recruits per year, while still retaining some semblance of quality in the training of my armed forces? Granted, yes, the draftees would go through shortened training programs in order to get them out onto the battlefield quicker, which would lower the quality of their combat skill and discipline, but would that be plausible? In any case, I imagine that the first large campaigns in the war will be fought mostly by the standing army and reservists, as they'll have the most training.

As for officers, there are a steady supply coming out of military academies. Would it be reasonable to assume that officers would also be trained in the draft, or am I not understanding something correctly?


That steady supply will presumably be benchmarked to maintain replacement rates for the peacetime force, not the draft force. And increasing that supply will likely take years (depending on how long the service academies take from matriculation to graduation).

Men can be drafted to become officers, but the trouble is at the higher levels. You can draft a man, put him through basic training, then put him through officer candidate school and his specialty school within a year (presuming his specialty doesn't take that long to train for), and create a basic second lieutenant. But where do you get the higher-ranking officers? You don't draft men directly to become captains and colonels and generals.

The US dealt with this in WWII by creating two forces: the Army of the United States for draftees while retaining the Regular Army for professional soldiers. Regular Army soldiers then received ranks in the Army of the United States that were much higher than their original ranks (which they would revert to after the war ended and the draftees discharged). For instance, by early 1943 Dwight D. Eisenhower was a 4-star general in the Army of the United States, but only a colonel in the Regular Army.

The downside to this of course is that promoting an officer from command of a battalion to command of a division may be rather overwhelming if they are unprepared for such a task. The likelihood of a lapse in quality increases, and you still have a bit of a lag time as the newly-promoted officers become accustomed to their new responsibilities.


A system similar to that would probably be the most beneficial for my country's situation. Though, as you said, there would be a decrease in quality as officers get used to their new positions and responsibilities, it should likely be beneficial in the long run because it allows for the rate of officer gain to keep up with the rate of draftee gain.

Most, if not all of the superpowers in question already have large navies, so naval poeer is something that we all already have. One of the opposing superpowers is in close proximity to my country, so my country can be used as a staging ground for the invasion of that enemy. For the others, there are several possible staging grounds for my country to use, though I have not secured any deals with them as of now.


The presence of navies is a bad thing. Especially submarines, which are difficult, expensive, and time consuming to hunt while being a sufficient threat to severely impede any expeditionary efforts.


So, I take it that my efforts, navally, at least, would be best spent on ensuring that I can land troops safely, and to sink as many submarines as possbile? Navally, I'm fairly certain that my side of the war (once all of the superpowers officially declare what side they're on) has both the larger and the more modern navy.

I'm beginning to doubt the effectiveness of mass conscription as a strategy in modern warfare. Would, perhaps, mobilising the reserves and training a small, manageable amount of conscripts be the better way to go? It certainly sounds more manageable, both in terms of infrastructure and the economy. Plus, the logistics for such a force would, theoretically, be easier because less supplies would need to be transported to them. Furthermore, this option seems to fit the goal I had in mind for my country's military: a bit on the small side as far as the world's top powers go, but a formidable fighting force because of its training, discipline, and modern technology.


The question is whether you can equip and support them properly. Modern munitions are getting increasingly capable, but also increasingly expensive with longer production times and lower procurement quantities. If you train a million new tank crewmen but only have tank stockpiles for a hundred thousand of them, why bother? This can be changed of course if you're willing to spend the cash, but on top of supporting a massive draft force, this is the kind of expenditure you make only when your nation is existentially threatened by another. One where complete bankruptcy and the devastation of the economy is a more desirable outcome than the alternative.
[/quote]

Considering that this war will likely result in the removal of my government from power, the sending of a large portion of my citizens into poverty, and the possible balkanisation of my country if I lose, economic troubles would be a welcome tradeoff. In addition, there is a hostile superpower in close proximity to my country, so one of the objectives of the war is to neutralise the threat that it poses and take buffer states as puppets to provide extra distance between our two countries. Said hostile superpower is newly formed, having achieved independence (by vote, and from my ally too...) the previous September, so would there be any possible turmoil that I could take advantage of in order to make the war go more smoothly for my country?

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St Salvador
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Postby St Salvador » Mon May 18, 2015 7:07 pm

The question is whether you can equip and support them properly. Modern munitions are getting increasingly capable, but also increasingly expensive with longer production times and lower procurement quantities. If you train a million new tank crewmen but only have tank stockpiles for a hundred thousand of them, why bother? This can be changed of course if you're willing to spend the cash, but on top of supporting a massive draft force, this is the kind of expenditure you make only when your nation is existentially threatened by another. One where complete bankruptcy and the devastation of the economy is a more desirable outcome than the alternative.[/quote][/quote]

Considering that this war will likely result in the removal of my government from power, the sending of a large portion of my citizens into poverty, and the possible balkanisation of my country if I lose, economic troubles would be a welcome tradeoff. In addition, there is a hostile superpower in close proximity to my country, so one of the objectives of the war is to neutralise the threat that it poses and take buffer states as puppets to provide extra distance between our two countries. Said hostile superpower is newly formed, having achieved independence (by vote, and from my ally too...) the previous September, so would there be any possible turmoil that I could take advantage of in order to make the war go more smoothly for my country?[/quote]

its the chance you take to protect the revolution also if you share a border with the superpower mass conscription could work so long as you neutralize most of his professional army before your prewar army is drained of veterans. if hes on another continent then focus on your space fleet and navy so you can get the first blow if you like The Salventinian Republic will pledge Three Aircraft Carriers and 75,000 Regulars to help you.
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Maichuko
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Postby Maichuko » Tue May 19, 2015 7:45 am

How many men should I have in my nations military units I was thinking of this
Squad:16 men
Platoon:40-45
Company:180 4 platoons
Battalion:1200 8 companies
Regiment:3600 men 3 Battalions
Division:18,000 4 Regiments
Korps:54,000 3 divisions

how many of these men should be in supporting roles that don't take part in combat.
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Questers
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Postby Questers » Tue May 19, 2015 7:48 am

Military formations do not scale linearly.
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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Tue May 19, 2015 7:54 am

Maichuko wrote:How many men should I have in my nations military units I was thinking of this
Squad:16 men
Platoon:40-45
Company:180 4 platoons
Battalion:1200 8 companies
Regiment:3600 men 3 Battalions
Division:18,000 4 Regiments
Korps:54,000 3 divisions

how many of these men should be in supporting roles that don't take part in combat.

A lot.

Especially since a regiment contains more than three battalions, a division more than four regiments. The difference being not all of these are manoeuvre units.
A Regiment may have three fighting battalions, then it has headquarters, supply, some artillery and other units. A Division will almost universally have additional armour, artillery, supply formations to its fighting regiments.
A platoon and a company is almost entirely made up of fighting units, the battalion is typically where additional units such as reconnaissance, air defence and artillery start being introduced.
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Yukonastan
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Postby Yukonastan » Tue May 19, 2015 9:05 am

If I stick a 20mm grenade into a running turbine engine('s core), will it destroy it?
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Altito Asmoro
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Postby Altito Asmoro » Tue May 19, 2015 9:07 am

Yukonastan wrote:If I stick a 20mm grenade into a running turbine engine('s core), will it destroy it?


Probably.
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Yukonastan
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Postby Yukonastan » Tue May 19, 2015 9:15 am

Altito Asmoro wrote:
Yukonastan wrote:If I stick a 20mm grenade into a running turbine engine('s core), will it destroy it?


Probably.


That's good, then. I wouldn't expect anything less. lest my 20mm rifle grenades betray the people!
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Tulacia
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Postby Tulacia » Tue May 19, 2015 9:34 am

Yukonastan wrote:If I stick a 20mm grenade into a running turbine engine('s core), will it destroy it?


Like dropping a mortar onto the engine of a FW-190?

(It was a stupid Syfy movie where the Nazis resurrect killer gargoyles, and some allied special forces are sent to stop the Nazis. In one part they steal a mortar and a British artilleryman drops one on a FW-190 that is coming around to strafe them)
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Immoren
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Postby Immoren » Tue May 19, 2015 10:06 am

Maichuko wrote:How many men should I have in my nations military units I was thinking of this
Squad:16 men
Platoon:40-45
Company:180 4 platoons
Battalion:1200 8 companies
Regiment:3600 men 3 Battalions
Division:18,000 4 Regiments
Korps:54,000 3 divisions

how many of these men should be in supporting roles that don't take part in combat.


Why don't you spell both company and corps with same consonant?
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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Tue May 19, 2015 10:10 am

Immoren wrote:
Maichuko wrote:How many men should I have in my nations military units I was thinking of this
Squad:16 men
Platoon:40-45
Company:180 4 platoons
Battalion:1200 8 companies
Regiment:3600 men 3 Battalions
Division:18,000 4 Regiments
Korps:54,000 3 divisions

how many of these men should be in supporting roles that don't take part in combat.


Why don't you spell both company and corps with same consonant?

Is it traditional that both would have the same consonant?
I'm not familiar with spelling rules in other languages.
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Tulacia
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Postby Tulacia » Tue May 19, 2015 10:13 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Immoren wrote:
Why don't you spell both company and corps with same consonant?

Is it traditional that both would have the same consonant?
I'm not familiar with spelling rules in other languages.


If he's doing a Germanic thing, I know Company is Kompanie and Corps is Korps.
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The Empire of Pretantia
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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Tue May 19, 2015 2:19 pm

Tulacia wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:Is it traditional that both would have the same consonant?
I'm not familiar with spelling rules in other languages.


If he's doing a Germanic thing, I know Company is Kompanie and Corps is Korps.

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Postby Imperializt Russia » Tue May 19, 2015 2:35 pm

What role, exactly, does a Corps fill between the Division and the larger formations such as the Army and/or Front?
It makes sense for a large "independent" formation of divisions, regiments or brigades that operate alongside or as part of an Army or a Front, but I'm wondering if it has any real use amongst general forces. ie, fighting corps that directly constitute one of these larger formations.

The Soviets supposedly had large Rifle Corps and Armoured Corps during the War.
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Postby Tulacia » Tue May 19, 2015 2:48 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:What role, exactly, does a Corps fill between the Division and the larger formations such as the Army and/or Front?
It makes sense for a large "independent" formation of divisions, regiments or brigades that operate alongside or as part of an Army or a Front, but I'm wondering if it has any real use amongst general forces. ie, fighting corps that directly constitute one of these larger formations.

The Soviets supposedly had large Rifle Corps and Armoured Corps during the War.


I think a Corps was mostly concentrated of the same unit type (Rifle Corps mostly Rifle Divisions, Armoured Corps mostly Tankovy Divisions, etc.) while an Army could have a whole slew of different types (Tankovy Divisions operating right alongside Rifle Divisions in the same conglomerated unit)
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The Empire of Pretantia
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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Tue May 19, 2015 2:56 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:What role, exactly, does a Corps fill between the Division and the larger formations such as the Army and/or Front?
It makes sense for a large "independent" formation of divisions, regiments or brigades that operate alongside or as part of an Army or a Front, but I'm wondering if it has any real use amongst general forces. ie, fighting corps that directly constitute one of these larger formations.

The Soviets supposedly had large Rifle Corps and Armoured Corps during the War.

In the US, the corps is currently the largest fighting formation, since massive armies aren't needed; anything larger is administration.
Last edited by The Empire of Pretantia on Tue May 19, 2015 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Tue May 19, 2015 2:58 pm

Basically what I was saying. The Front could have an "independent" Rifle Corps and two Tank Corps attached, while its main manoeuvre units are a slew of assorted Divisions or possibly an Army.
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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Tue May 19, 2015 3:00 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:Basically what I was saying. The Front could have an "independent" Rifle Corps and two Tank Corps attached, while its main manoeuvre units are a slew of assorted Divisions or possibly an Army.

Corps are smaller than divisions and don't have as many support elements and such making them good for a detached independent reserve and such. It's basically the solution for when you need some extra manpower but don't want to mess with the overhead of a whole extra division.
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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Tue May 19, 2015 3:01 pm

A Corps, in the Red Army days at least, was three Divisions combined.
A Rifle Corps was 3 Rifle Divisions, an Air Corps was 3 Air Divisions and so on.

I think you're thinking of a Brigade.
Last edited by Imperializt Russia on Tue May 19, 2015 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Tue May 19, 2015 3:02 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:A Corps, in the Red Army days at least, was three Divisions combined.
A Rifle Corps was 3 Rifle Divisions, an Air Corps was 3 Air Divisions and so on.

I think you're thinking of a Brigade.

Actually I should have said army. A front is basically an army group. So the maneuver unit of a front is the army. And a corps is basically a cut down army.
Last edited by Purpelia on Tue May 19, 2015 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Krazakistan
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Postby Krazakistan » Tue May 19, 2015 3:11 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:Basically what I was saying. The Front could have an "independent" Rifle Corps and two Tank Corps attached, while its main manoeuvre units are a slew of assorted Divisions or possibly an Army.

If you're making the jump from division to Army, as you seem to be implying, then what units are going to be in the Army? A couple of divisions? In which case, you would have something that looks and acts like a Corps but named differently.

Otherwise in response to your original question, the role of a Corps is to be an additional administrative formation that either has organic supporting arms or can be attached with them. I imagine an Army commander would have an easier time communicating and coordinating with 3-4 Corps commanders rather than 9 or so division commanders.

Edit: Nevermind, I forgot that you were asking about Soviet/Russian Corps which are different than western ones.

Edit 2: The Soviet Corps was a formation that was double the size of a TD or MRD but still smaller than an Army. They were to be apart of the Operational Maneuver Group and to be used for deep high speed strikes into the enemy rear area.
Last edited by Krazakistan on Tue May 19, 2015 3:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Zeinbrad » Tue May 19, 2015 3:43 pm

Zeinbrad wrote:So me and a friend are making an RP about a Soviet invasion of the US (during a Cold War gone hot scenario) and I just written up the Soviets naval ORBAT, thoughts?

Admiral Gorshkov Task Force
Commander-Admiral Vladimir Kasatonov
One Kiev-Class Aircraft Carrier-Admiral Gorshkov.
One Kirov-Class Battlecruiser-Admiral Ushakov.
Two Kresta II-Class Cruisers (anti-submarine)-Kronstadt and Admiral Isakov.
Five Udaloy-Class Destroyers (anti-submarine)-Vice-Admiral Kulakov, Marshal Shaposhnikov, Admiral Levchenko, Admiral Vinogradov, Admiral Panteleyev,
Seven Krivank-Class Frigates,
Ten Grisha-Class Corvettes-

Kiev Task Force.
Commander-Admiral Vladimir Alexeyev.
One Kiev-Class Aircraft Carrier-Kiev.
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Five Udaloy-Class Destroyers-Severmonsk, Admiral Tributs, Admiral Zakharov, Udaloy, Admiral Kharlamov.
Seven Krivank-Class Frigates-
Ten Grisha-Class Corvettes.

Submarines
Echo Class Submarine-Cruise Missile
Tango-Class-Conventional attack.
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The Soodean Imperium
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Postby The Soodean Imperium » Tue May 19, 2015 6:49 pm

For anyone seeking clarification about the above discussion:

Where NATO organization normally goes Division - Corps - Army, Soviet organization normally goes Division - Army - Front.

Soviet forces would sometimes have Corps, which, as Krazakistan noted, were independent shock formations slightly smaller than an Army but able to fight more independently, designed to support and exploit breakthroughs. The Soviets also had provision for a "Group of Tank Armies" in Belarus and Poland, which would be the "1:3 Armor-heavy" counterpart to the "3:1 Motor-Rifle-heavy" Front... though it's possible I'm just remembering that from Suvorov/Rezun's speculations.

At any rate, the Soodean Army is Division - Corps - Army - Army Group, the latter necessitated by the length and density of my militarized border. Corps and Armies on the non-militarized border, near the coastline, and in the interior are mainly administrative formations, and are grouped into Military Districts rather than Army Groups, though in the case of a major naval incursion they can serve to coordinate the mobilization of forces and the targeting of long-range strikes on enemy carrier-battlegroups.

Zeinbrad wrote:
Zeinbrad wrote:

You know full well that this has already been said last summer, but I'll say it again: posting a long list of semi-relevant information here isn't giving us much to work off of, nor is it likely to get you feedback. Listing the names of the individual ships, for instance, isn't really grounds for much feedback, unless you want to go for a really detailed discussion of which refits were applied to certain Krivaks and not others.

Moreover, it doesn't really address the core of your issue, which is that the Soviet Navy was never designed to launch an invasion of the Continental United States. Even if Lenin's ghost had descended from the Great Marxist Beyond and vaporized the entire US Navy with one angry glance, the USSR would have struggled to transport, support, and supply even a few Divisions on US soil.

If you want to go for some kind of Red-Dawn-meets-Call-of-Duty fantasy where the Reds are parachuting into Times Square and sailing Slavas up the Hudson, then that's good for you, but it's not the sort of thing you can discuss in a Realism thread.
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Founded: Jun 04, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Zeinbrad » Tue May 19, 2015 6:53 pm

The Soodean Imperium wrote:For anyone seeking clarification about the above discussion:

Where NATO organization normally goes Division - Corps - Army, Soviet organization normally goes Division - Army - Front.

Soviet forces would sometimes have Corps, which, as Krazakistan noted, were independent shock formations slightly smaller than an Army but able to fight more independently, designed to support and exploit breakthroughs. The Soviets also had provision for a "Group of Tank Armies" in Belarus and Poland, which would be the "1:3 Armor-heavy" counterpart to the "3:1 Motor-Rifle-heavy" Front... though it's possible I'm just remembering that from Suvorov/Rezun's speculations.

At any rate, the Soodean Army is Division - Corps - Army - Army Group, the latter necessitated by the length and density of my militarized border. Corps not on the militarized border are mainly administrative, and are grouped into Military Districts, which are almost purely administrative.

Zeinbrad wrote:

You know full well that this has already been said last summer, but I'll say it again: posting a long list of semi-relevant information here isn't giving us much to work off of, nor is it likely to get you feedback. Listing the names of the individual ships, for instance, isn't really grounds for much feedback, unless you want to go for a really detailed discussion of which refits were applied to certain Krivaks and not others.

Moreover, it doesn't really address the core of your issue, which is that the Soviet Navy was never designed to launch an invasion of the Continental United States. Even if Lenin's ghost had descended from the Great Marxist Beyond and vaporized the entire US Navy with one angry glance, the USSR would have struggled to transport, support, and supply even a few Divisions on US soil.

If you want to go for some kind of Red-Dawn-meets-Call-of-Duty fantasy where the Reds are parachuting into Times Square and sailing Slavas up the Hudson, then that's good for you, but it's not the sort of thing you can discuss in a Realism thread.

Oh sorry, that was for a friend.

I was just wondering if the carriers escorts and such are adequate, in this setting the Soviets are just trying to bog down the U.S. so they can't send troops to Europe, and are invading along side Cuba.

I know the Kiev could only carry a shitty plan, and it's more of a cruiser, so may I ask what are some ways the Soviet invasion fleet can not get evaporates?
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The Soodean Imperium
Senator
 
Posts: 4859
Founded: May 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby The Soodean Imperium » Tue May 19, 2015 7:13 pm

Zeinbrad wrote:Oh sorry, that was for a friend.

I was just wondering if the carriers escorts and such are adequate, in this setting the Soviets are just trying to bog down the U.S. so they can't send troops to Europe, and are invading along side Cuba.

I know the Kiev could only carry a shitty plan, and it's more of a cruiser, so may I ask what are some ways the Soviet invasion fleet can not get evaporates?

The ratio of escort ships to carriers is fine, and is actually a bit heavy. But it doesn't change the fact that the Soviet Navy and its ships were not designed for an invasion of the US.

Take the Krivak, for instance. While designated a "Frigate" in most English-language literature, the Soviets termed it a "Guard Ship," and intended it for patrolling home waters around the USSR; note that compared to the USN's Oliver Hazard Perry, it has a smaller operational range and lacks a hangar or even a helipad ("Krivak III" corrected this but served in the Soviet equivalent of the Coast Guard). This is even more true of the Grishas, which were mere corvettes. Soviet AAW suites were also generally poor, Udaloy's Kinzhal system only had the range for self-defense and Sovremenny's Ezh system took a long time to reload (and still had less than half the range of the SM-2). Even setting aside the problems with the Yak-38, the Soviets would have to contend with a larger number of American carrier battle-groups, plus any naval forces sent by Europe as they cross the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap, plus land-based aviation in the US. Which is why rather than investing in a parity navy to challenge the US at home, they focused on spamming missiles at any US carrier-battlegroups approaching the Motherland.

If all you want is a way to tie up the US's reinforcement flow to Europe, the Soviet Navy already has a way of doing that - namely, a huge force of submarines. SSNs and SSNGs would carry out strikes on shipping in the Atlantic, and if the war goes nuclear, SSBNs can launch nuclear strikes on key US ports.

But if you're looking for a justifiable explanation for how the Soviet Navy, let alone Cuba, can support an amphibious invasion of the Continental United States, this isn't really the thread to ask about it.
Last edited by The Soodean Imperium on Tue May 19, 2015 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Last harmonized by Hu Jintao on Sat Mar 4, 2006 2:33pm, harmonized 8 times in total.


"In short, when we hastily attribute to aesthetic and inherited faculties the artistic nature of Athenian civilization, we are almost proceeding as did men in the Middle Ages, when fire was explained by phlogiston and the effects of opium by its soporific powers." --Emile Durkheim, 1895
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ICly, this nation is now known as the Socialist Republic of Menghe (대멩 사회주의 궁화국, 大孟社會主義共和國). You can still call me Soode in OOC.

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