Infantry Discussion Thread 10: Shovel Edition [NO FWORDS]

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Inb4 fanbois unironically attempt to defend this

Should
Have
Bought
M16 production rights

That thing is disgusting, nearly threw up looking at that. Thanks Fuzzy Puz(sarcasm).

Hate Bull Pup, don't give a fuck about the advantages.

Do I look like I care about what a bunch of incompetents does in the Banker State of rUK?

[Kazarogkai]

That thing is disgusting, nearly threw up looking at that. Thanks Fuzzy Puz(sarcasm).

Hate Bull Pup, don't give a fuck about the advantages.

Do I look like I care about what a bunch of incompetents does in the Banker State of rUK?

I wasn't talking to you... and i'm not from the UK.

[NeuPolska]

6.5 Grendel?

[Austrasien]

6.5 Grendel?

Only exists to cram a 6.5mm round into 5.56mm AR-15 uppers. No reason to use it otherwise.

[NeuPolska]

6.5 Grendel?

Only exists to cram a 6.5mm round into 5.56mm AR-15 uppers. No reason to use it otherwise.

What about as a lighter alternative to 7.62x54? Seems to have close to the same power but without being as heavy.

[Austrasien]

It is not close at all. Muzzle energy is about 40% lower.

If you want an off-the-shelf military 6.5mm the 6.5x55mm Swedish is the best choice probably. Unlike the Grendel, it actually is a credible full power cartridge and it still has the same excellent ballistics available to 6.5mm bullets.

[NeuPolska]

Worth using in a semi-automatic modern rifle, in terms of recoil and carry weight?

[Austrasien]

If you are using 7.62x51mm rifles it would be a sensible option.

[Gallia-]

>being pro monarchies

PIRA is the most American thing to set foot in Europe since Eisenhower.

i mean monarchies are gay but the monarchy in question is slightly more competent than the pira

i mean we're talking about a country that worships a dude with no teeth so theyre basically the same thing

[NeuPolska]

If you are using 7.62x51mm rifles it would be a sensible option.

And now the dreaded question: 5.56 vs 6.5

From what I gather, 6.5 is more accurate, has better or at least as good penetration as 7.62x51, and also weighs less, while requiring longer barrels. My military doesn't fight desert conflicts against poorly-armored Jihadis; if I go to war I'm more than likely going to have a bunch of dudes with ceramic plates up against me. It seems sensible then to go for a cartridge with less recoil than 7.62x51, but better accuracy and range than 5.56 and more importantly better penetration.

[Gallia-]

That thing is disgusting, nearly threw up looking at that. Thanks Fuzzy Puz(sarcasm).

Hate Bull Pup, don't give a fuck about the advantages.

Do I look like I care about what a bunch of incompetents does in the Banker State of rUK?

o hay it's gayla

viewtopic.php?p=25571044#p25571044

[Rhodesialund]

It is not close at all. Muzzle energy is about 40% lower.

If you want an off-the-shelf military 6.5mm the 6.5x55mm Swedish is the best choice probably. Unlike the Grendel, it actually is a credible full power cartridge and it still has the same excellent ballistics available to 6.5mm bullets.

Cough, this disagrees with you, cough.

[Rhodesialund]

What about as a lighter alternative to 7.62x54? Seems to have close to the same power but without being as heavy.

6.5 Grendel is better seen as an intermediate cartridge than an actual full powered cartridge replacement. For something to replace current in-service full powered cartridges, you might want to upgun existing GPMGs or DMRs into something bigger. The US Army is experimenting with the General Dynamics LMMG and the Remington MSR chambered in .338 Norma Magnum.

Despite the benefits, 5.56x45mm and 5.45x39mm are still good cartridges. But the infantryman's cartridge is not a war-winner. Real war winners are fire-support and logistics.

[Gallia-]

If you are using 7.62x51mm rifles it would be a sensible option.

And now the dreaded question: 5.56 vs 6.5

[NeuPolska]

What about as a lighter alternative to 7.62x54? Seems to have close to the same power but without being as heavy.

6.5 Grendel is better seen as an intermediate cartridge than an actual full powered cartridge replacement. For something to replace current in-service full powered cartridges, you might want to upgun existing GPMGs or DMRs into something bigger. The US Army is experimenting with the General Dynamics LMMG and the Remington MSR chambered in .338 Norma Magnum.

Despite the benefits, 5.56x45mm and 5.45x39mm are still good cartridges. But the infantryman's cartridge is not a war-winner. Real war winners are fire-support and logistics.

Interesting idea, though I'm looking primarily to change my standard service rifle cartridge into something more powerful.

I think I'll keep 5.56x39 for certain environments that my troops might deployed in where the extra range and power offered by 6.5 or 7.62 for that matter isn't necessary, while 6.5 ammunition will become my go-to standard ammunition. The main question for me now seems to be whether I want to go full-power and take the 6.5 Swedish, or the 6.5 Grendel. Can either of them effectively take on ceramic plate (meaning they can penetrate on the 2nd or 3rd hit)?

And I understand that logistics are more important and howitzers and tanks are more important than a cartridge, I just like to work out the specifics and get my troops something that'll help them win against other infantry in a straight fight.

[Purpelia]

Just go with 5.5x42mm Purpelian. It's basically the 5.54mm bullet fired from a supercharged case that gives it more velocity and a flatter trajectory. Than again, I don't trust it enough to not still use 7.5x55 Swiss for precision purposes so take my advice with a grain of salt.

[Rhodesialund]

Interesting idea, though I'm looking primarily to change my standard service rifle cartridge into something more powerful.

I think I'll keep 5.56x39 for certain environments that my troops might deployed in where the extra range and power offered by 6.5 or 7.62 for that matter isn't necessary, while 6.5 ammunition will become my go-to standard ammunition. The main question for me now seems to be whether I want to go full-power and take the 6.5 Swedish, or the 6.5 Grendel. Can either of them effectively take on ceramic plate (meaning they can penetrate on the 2nd or 3rd hit)?

And I understand that logistics are more important and howitzers and tanks are more important than a cartridge, I just like to work out the specifics and get my troops something that'll help them win against other infantry in a straight fight.

The problem is that you have an intermediate cartridge that overlaps some of the performance offered by full powered cartridges (6.5 Grendel and 7.62x51mm). It's not an optimal system to have once cartridge that can do some of what the other can do. You want cartridges that have a clear distinction between the two.

An example is the 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm. 5.56 is a great intermediate cartridge that offers low weight, high capacity, and high velocity for 100-400m ranges. 7.62x51 offers better transitional, external and terminal ballistics over 400+m ranges. They both don't overlap each other because of clear distinctions in their respective roles and performance.

[Gallia-]

6.5 Grendel is better seen as an intermediate cartridge than an actual full powered cartridge replacement. For something to replace current in-service full powered cartridges, you might want to upgun existing GPMGs or DMRs into something bigger. The US Army is experimenting with the General Dynamics LMMG and the Remington MSR chambered in .338 Norma Magnum.

Despite the benefits, 5.56x45mm and 5.45x39mm are still good cartridges. But the infantryman's cartridge is not a war-winner. Real war winners are fire-support and logistics.

Interesting idea, though I'm looking primarily to change my standard service rifle cartridge into something more powerful.

I think I'll keep 5.56x39 for certain environments that my troops might deployed in where the extra range and power offered by 6.5 or 7.62 for that matter isn't necessary, while 6.5 ammunition will become my go-to standard ammunition. The main question for me now seems to be whether I want to go full-power and take the 6.5 Swedish, or the 6.5 Grendel. Can either of them effectively take on ceramic plate (meaning they can penetrate on the 2nd or 3rd hit)?

And I understand that logistics are more important and howitzers and tanks are more important than a cartridge, I just like to work out the specifics and get my troops something that'll help them win against other infantry in a straight fight.

Give them good mortar crews and recoilless rifles.

Then they will win at a "straight fight".

As opposed to a transgender fight? Cishomo? I'm not sure what the opposite of a straight fight is. Gay fight?

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

The GPC vs intermediate + full size debate boils down to:

-pretty much any GPC you choose => less ammo than with an intermediate cartridge, for the same weight.
-benefits for the regular infantryman (which will be the main and most numerous user of the GPC, and thus arguably the most important or the one requiring the most consideration) that are brought by the GPC do not make up for the loss in ammunition capacity, at least not at the range your regular infantryman fights enemies at typically.
-the argument that you're helping logistics by having your squads only use 1 type of ammunition is rather weak considering that firearm cartridges are not an especially difficult item to transport or manufacture, and it makes even less sense to make the change assuming you already have tooling and etc. in place to manufacture weapons chambered in your intermediate cartridge and full size cartridge and ammo for them, and already have stocks of said weapons and ammunition.

What I personally do with my nation is that I actually use a GPC for the squad (specifically, 7x46mm), with assault rifles, DMRs and GPMGs chambered in this cartridge, and use .338 NM for my MMGs and sniper rifle. However, my IC history doesn't feature the intermediate + full power duo, instead I just wank it off as "I've always used only 1 main cartridge and it got downsized over the years to its current 7x46mm form" .

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

6.5 Grendel is better seen as an intermediate cartridge than an actual full powered cartridge replacement. For something to replace current in-service full powered cartridges, you might want to upgun existing GPMGs or DMRs into something bigger. The US Army is experimenting with the General Dynamics LMMG and the Remington MSR chambered in .338 Norma Magnum.

Despite the benefits, 5.56x45mm and 5.45x39mm are still good cartridges. But the infantryman's cartridge is not a war-winner. Real war winners are fire-support and logistics.

Interesting idea, though I'm looking primarily to change my standard service rifle cartridge into something more powerful.

I think I'll keep 5.56x39 for certain environments that my troops might deployed in where the extra range and power offered by 6.5 or 7.62 for that matter isn't necessary, while 6.5 ammunition will become my go-to standard ammunition. The main question for me now seems to be whether I want to go full-power and take the 6.5 Swedish, or the 6.5 Grendel. Can either of them effectively take on ceramic plate (meaning they can penetrate on the 2nd or 3rd hit)?

And I understand that logistics are more important and howitzers and tanks are more important than a cartridge, I just like to work out the specifics and get my troops something that'll help them win against other infantry in a straight fight.

As Rhodesialund said, I don't this is such a great idea either.

If 6.5 Grendel is "too much", use your pistol/PDW cartridge in a SMG/PDW/carbine/whatever, or if you must have a specially special cartridge for close range encounters maybe use the 9x39mm idk. It's designed to be used in suppressed weapons.

[NeuPolska]

I think the most important question would be how resistant body armor actually is against 5.56, 6.5, 7.62x54, etc, because that's what prompted me to look into 6.5 over the 5.56 to begin with. Regardless of artillery or heavy weapons, if enemy soldiers equipped with level iv armor attack mine, I want a cartridge that has the best balance between penetration power and recoil, in order to put enough AP rounds against said enemy soldiers to kill as quickly as possible without requiring a headshot.

[Crookfur]

I think the most important question would be how resistant body armor actually is against 5.56, 6.5, 7.62x54, etc, because that's what prompted me to look into 6.5 over the 5.56 to begin with. Regardless of artillery or heavy weapons, if enemy soldiers equipped with level iv armor attack mine, I want a cartridge that has the best balance between penetration power and recoil, in order to put enough AP rounds against said enemy soldiers to kill as quickly as possible without requiring a headshot.

WC cored AP ammo from 5.56x45mm on up will penetrate IV armour at reasonable ranges.

level IV isn't what you really have to worry about its any heavy plate newer than ESAPI which will stop WC cored AP ammo from the full power .30cal rounds (7.62x51mm and 7.62x54mmR).

Of course the plates don't offer full cover so unless you want to issue WC cored ammo(something like 5-10times more expensive per round that basic steel/lead cored ammo off the top of my head) to everyone then everything again comes down to volume of fire to increase the chances of hits outside the protected zone.

[Puzikas]

Actually personal armor is starting to become resistant to 5.56 maybe
Which is part of why the US is preforming a study to determine the usefulness of finding and preforming a switch to a new caliber/back to 7.62x51mm.


E: oh yah I think that plate is expired, or theres, you know, special ammunition being used there.
Because a IV plate is definitely proofed against 6.5x39 of all loadings. While not standard practice to test that it still has been tested and proofed.

[Rhodesialund]

Actually personal armor is starting to become resistant to 5.56 maybe
Which is part of why the US is preforming a study to determine the usefulness of finding and preforming a switch to a new caliber/back to 7.62x51mm.


E: oh yah I think that plate is expired, or theres, you know, special ammunition being used there.
Because a IV plate is definitely proofed against 6.5x39 of all loadings. While not standard practice to test that it still has been tested and proofed.

It's actually a homebrew 125 gr Tungsten Core bullet. The plate is not expired. Bill Alexander is a man of selfishness and not licensing out his shit for the ease of distribution to the consumer, but a flat out liar is not one of them.

[Rhodesialund]

Give them good mortar crews and recoilless rifles.

Then they will win at a "straight fight".

As opposed to a transgender fight? Cishomo? I'm not sure what the opposite of a straight fight is. Gay fight?

If it were to be a gay fight, it requires Tac-Sac foregrips and underslung dildo launchers.