OOC: Laser weapons in MT and PMT: A brief FAQ

[EternalNight]

About the best you could hope to match would be the M61 Vulcan/Phalanx system. That's basically the intent of Raytheon's Centurion LADS system. Only real advantage over Phalanx is lack of ammunition.

[Salzland]

Oh, pff, we've already got the technology in real life to do better than the 500 meters or so that a CIWS covers. There's nothing stopping ship-borne laser anti missile systems (albeit ones hooked up to either nuclear reactors, or dedicated generators/electric drives, like the Zumwalt destroyer) (Edit: Or, alternatively, if you want to go with those old-fashioned chemical lasers, you'll need storage tanks for a bunch of very hazardous chemicals) from having thirty or forty kilometers of reach. They'll be (comparatively) bulky systems, they'll be limited to line of sight (meaning that there will be problems intercepting sea-skimming targets and ships in the center of formations won't be able to engage if there are friendly ships in the way), but it's doable. And having the ability to swat targets at a much longer range than a CIWS with a 100% hit probability means a lot when we're talking about the quantity of missiles that traditionally get tossed around in NS.

Keeping in mind, of course, that lasers are only a supplemental anti-missile system, and not intended to replace the protection provided by a full screen including traditional SAMs, Rolling Airframe Missiles and CIWS guns.

[Sucrati]

I have an anti-air vehicle ripped right off of CNC generals zero hour (the avenger)

[Toopoxia]

Keeping in mind, of course, that lasers are only a supplemental anti-missile system, and not intended to replace the protection provided by a full screen including traditional SAMs, Rolling Airframe Missiles and CIWS guns.

A part of me feels you need to end that sentence: "always contact your physician before use"

How would I work this into an RP? I mean, what would the process look like? Feel like? Sound like?

[Concordeia]

Dammit, and I got accused of tech-wanking for using megawatt-scale free electron laser CIWS on my (nuclear powered) vessels to block missile spam! And I'm freakin early PMT!

EDIT: Well, okay, it WAS partial techwanking because I only used lasers for the second layer of missile defense instead of using both lasers AND short-range missile CIWS.

By the way, I understand that the rolling airframe missile spins for stability, but does this have any benefit on the range of the missile as opposed to a non-spinning SAM?

[Novus Niciae]

Throwing up a cloud of quartz sand may have some effect on a laser beam at or near the visible spectrum owing to the prismatic qualities of quartz sand.

[Axis Nova]

It also has the same problems for defending rapidly moving objects as smoke does, except moreso since sand is heavier.

[Falkasia]

Dammit, and I got accused of tech-wanking for using megawatt-scale free electron laser CIWS on my (nuclear powered) vessels to block missile spam! And I'm freakin early PMT!

I gotta say it. First time I read through this, I could have sworn it said something like this:

Dammit, and I got accused of tech-wanking for using megawatt-scale free electron laser CIWS on my (nuclear powered) vessels to block spam missiles!

I was like, "Who the hell are you fighting... or more importantly, was your lunch meat laced?"

[Concordeia]

Dammit, and I got accused of tech-wanking for using megawatt-scale free electron laser CIWS on my (nuclear powered) vessels to block missile spam! And I'm freakin early PMT!

I gotta say it. First time I read through this, I could have sworn it said something like this:

Dammit, and I got accused of tech-wanking for using megawatt-scale free electron laser CIWS on my (nuclear powered) vessels to block spam missiles!

I was like, "Who the hell are you fighting... or more importantly, was your lunch meat laced?"

Oh my god, I am SO sigging this!

[The Divine Moon]

Just a question, and I'm not sure if I will get shot down for this...

Would it be possible to construct an anti-missile/anti-air laser weapon similar to the Excalibur laser from Ace Combat Zero?

Sorta, I use a seriously downgraded version of Excalibur in which it's strictly for ABM duties. The actual concept is perfectly doable, but an Ace Combat grade laser isn't.

[Kazturkania]

'bout the space lasers - The SDI had plans for a space based laser that was powered by nuclear weapons going off around it. It was a one shot deal, but it would have been perfectly capable of firing many beams in that single shot - enough to cripple the missiles of an opposing nation just as they took off. Once the missiles were fully airborne, aiming became a serious problem and that's why the theory was canned - but if you have sufficient intel on exactly when an enemy's missiles are taking off and you fire at the correct time you can effectively remove every first strike missile your opponent has deployed.

[Strykla]

Ever heard of the Airborne Laser?

[Idaho Conservatives]

This is some of the only sound science on NS! Sticky this now!

[Tarsas]

As someone who gets annoyed when noobs misuse lasers in modern tech, I want to just thank you so much.

[KludgeMUSH]

The best counter to missile spam is simply to provide an enormous array of inexpensive, expendable targets. If you don't clump up, a single missile can only kill one target. If you're spending hundreds of thousands on a missile to destroy a $5000 boat manned by three people, who may be able to escape by bailing out, you are losing the war economically. CIWS systems are expensive. Replacing speedboats is cheap, especially since they can be constructed by civilian industry without retooling. If you're not a submarine, you are a target.

On a side note, in the real world, lasers make rather amusing, if ridiculously expensive, bug zappers. The waste heat alone is fatal.

[Axis Nova]

You clearly havn't been paying much attention to the development of laser technology, or even this thread.

[Strykla]

Technically, since lasers are Radiation, a mirror would not work at all.

[KludgeMUSH]

The problem with the mirror idea is that mirrors reflect maybe 50% of what hits it on a good day. The remaining 50% will be absorbed by the mirror, and in the case of a weapons-grade energy discharge like a lazor, will cause it to vaporize and explode, which greatly limits future usage as a mirror.

However, lasers are not typically used as a weapons: They presently suffer from horrible efficiency and cost, and offer only limited advantages over conventional ballistic projectiles. Reflective surfaces may have some utility against lasers used as guidance and targeting devices. However, such things function poorly as armor.

[Strykla]

Oh, pff, we've already got the technology in real life to do better than the 500 meters or so that a CIWS covers. There's nothing stopping ship-borne laser anti missile systems (albeit ones hooked up to either nuclear reactors, or dedicated generators/electric drives, like the Zumwalt destroyer) (Edit: Or, alternatively, if you want to go with those old-fashioned chemical lasers, you'll need storage tanks for a bunch of very hazardous chemicals) from having thirty or forty kilometers of reach. They'll be (comparatively) bulky systems, they'll be limited to line of sight (meaning that there will be problems intercepting sea-skimming targets and ships in the center of formations won't be able to engage if there are friendly ships in the way), but it's doable. And having the ability to swat targets at a much longer range than a CIWS with a 100% hit probability means a lot when we're talking about the quantity of missiles that traditionally get tossed around in NS.

Keeping in mind, of course, that lasers are only a supplemental anti-missile system, and not intended to replace the protection provided by a full screen including traditional SAMs, Rolling Airframe Missiles and CIWS guns.

In MT, I have to say that most CIWS guns are far better than laser weapons. Chem lasers are the only ones we have in MT, and they have toxicity problems to deal with! CIWS carries all the ammo in the top drum, it has it's own radar, and, while it's range may not be the best, it's a last ditch defense. Aside from flares and Mylar, of course.

[Salzland]

On the contrary, I contend that our friend the solid-state laser gets far too little love, especially considering several (most notably the FIRESTRIKE produced by Northrup-Grumman, as well as DARPA's HELLADS, the ZEUS IED/mine removal system and competition units designed by Raytheon and Textron) are either deployment-ready or approaching final stage testing before becoming duty-capable. I would also note that these systems have been developed and come on-line with only a bare minimum of funding (a few million dollars over the last decade), from a nation fighting two costly overseas wars while maintaining significant other foreign deployments, and facing an annual economic deficit of well over $1 trillion. In other words, despite investing only a pittance in these systems, which the U.S. does not especially need at the moment (going to my earlier points concerning the lack of political will), during times of economic hardship, there are field-ready solid state units that, again, far exceed the arbitrary limits you are attempting to impose.

I would also note that several other nations (most notably Israel) have made significant developments in this field as well, going so far as to introduce mobile (albeit chemical-based) systems that have successfully interdicted live munitions in actual combat. Not to mention classified systems being developed without public disclosure by various nations' armed forces. Once again, there absolutely are viable laser defense systems, both solid state and chemical, which not only offer superior capabilities in comparison with CIWS systems but are capable of being fielded in force by pure MT nations.

Yet again, I will state that I am not advocating the abandonment of CIWS systems. Getting rid of them is flat-out stupid. But there is no reason that a laser-based system cannot be used as a longer-ranged supplemental anti-missile weapon.

[Strykla]

Solid state lasers are grossly expensive, and suck power like my old TV. Lasers, mounted on ships, however, would make a good supplement for existing AMS.

[Salzland]

Welcome to Nationstates, where defense budgets are measured by the tens of trillions, people sail trillion dollar warships, and even patrol boats are nuclear powered.

In other words, This is NationStates and solid state lasers, both here and IRL, are here to stay (especially when compared with even more expensive chemical lasers).

[Strykla]

Welcome to Nationstates, where defense budgets are measured by the tens of trillions, people sail trillion dollar warships, and even patrol boats are nuclear powered.

In other words, This is NationStates and solid state lasers, both here and IRL, are here to stay (especially when compared with even more expensive chemical lasers).

Good point. I forgot that nations with a population of 10 million can have their very own Death Star.

[Wikipedia and Universe]

This is an excellent guide. Hopefully will improve the quality of MT RP involving lasers.

Both chemical and solid-state lasers can both very effective given they are applied correctly. The Boeing AL-1 Airborne Laser uses a chemically-powered laser which is feasible given the large operational platform, the 747. A solid-state laser, though less powerful, can be given sufficient power provided a powerful source. For example, my nation's Richard Stallman-class aircraft carriers use laser CIWS to shoot sown missiles. It is basically like a shipboard MTHEL or laser Phalanx system. It is sustained by the ships' efficient A1B reactors. Due to the decreased effectiveness in adverse weather, it is also backed up by the original Phalanx and by missiles such as th RIM-116 RAM/SeaRAM, Sea Sparrow, and ESSM. This is a good use of a laser for warfare, and it can be applied due to the A1B reactors which could power a small city. The Laser CIWS is also used on my upcoming Aiwass-class Arsenal Ships which are powered by 1 A1B reactor and have about 48 crew. As for using chemical lasers, you will need to use a large platform to support the amount of fuel.

[Czardas]

Due to sticky overload in II, I've linked this in the II consolidation sticky and de-pinned it. Not porting the first post over there because I'd imagine it's more useful as a Q&A thread about lasers.