Military Ground Vehicles of Your Nation [NO MECHS] Tranche 7

[Korva]

Hello to one and all that are reading,

I'm relatively new when it comes to armored warfare, a lot to learn indeed...

I was wondering what you guys thought on missile tanks? More specifically, tanks with guided missiles as their primary weaponry.

My idea is to have them serve alongside my MBTs for indirect and direct support.

Any ideas?

Not terribly useful, especially now that most tanks can fire GLATGM's. You are better off mounting the ATGM on a truck or APC chassis.

The Russians made a prototype of something along the lines of that though, the IT-1.

This is my :not:IT-1

[Anemos Major]

Hello to one and all that are reading,

I'm relatively new when it comes to armored warfare, a lot to learn indeed...

I was wondering what you guys thought on missile tanks? More specifically, tanks with guided missiles as their primary weaponry.

My idea is to have them serve alongside my MBTs for indirect and direct support.

Any ideas?

Yeesh, don't do that.

The thing about ATGMs, doubly so in the modern era of stand-off BLOS munitions, is that they're powerful and long ranged while being light and, to a degree, self-contained. Which means that where a platform designed to engage armoured targets with a 120mm gun or thereabouts will need a minimum of 40-45t in combat weight to both fire the gun and take hits from a similar weapon, a vehicle firing stand-off ATGMs doesn't necessarily need to be designed to take equivalent hits and can fire it from a much lighter platform. As Spirit of Hope notes, what that means is that you can afford to mount these weapons on APC/IFV hulls - ATGM carriers don't need to be, and shouldn't be, tanks. Instead of getting into protracted slugging matches, the doctrinal utility of ATGMs is best exhibited in shoot-and-scoot or otherwise support roles, where you can fire off one or two of these potent weapons during an engagement within which you have the initiative, and pull back or let heavier assets take over before the enemy can regroup and engage you in earnest.

The idea of having ATGM-equipped vehicles support vehicles isn't a particularly novel one - the US did it with cavalry Bradleys during GW1, the Japanese relied heavily on ATGMs throughout the 80s to make up for a deficiency in armour against Soviet tanks like the T-72 and T-80 during the protracted development cycle of the Type 90 (where ATGM and RR carrying vehicles and eventually infantry would be able to knock out heavier tanks/tank-carrying landing craft while Type 74s would provide direct fire support and engage whatever they were capable of destroying), and the Germans came up with stuff like the Begleitpanzer 57 (though that was a private project) in the sort of 'escort' role you're envisioning here. But what's key is that they aren't tanks - they're lighter vehicles with lighter guns and ATGMs that complement heavy armour instead of supplementing it on the line.

[Rich and Corporations]

The US planned on replacing it's tanks with IFVs that used BLOS munitions, I must add.

[Allanea]

Of course what you could (and should) do, is give your existing tanks a missile launch capacity, like the Mekava Mk 4 and Soviet tanks have.

[Macedonian Grand Empire]

M 87 Orhan: 400 in 50 separate batteries
BM-30 Smerch: 184 in 23 separate batteries
9K720_Iskander: 26
9A52-4 Tornado: 200 in 25 batteries
What do you think on such an amount of MLRS artillery for my puppet state? It has to defend a line of around 950-1000 km in a static defense line with its neibor in a West/East Germany style scenario. Is it enough or should I acquire more?

[The Kievan People]

Ladies, gentlemen, Kyiv.

Let us suppose my nation utilizes the 2A83 tank gun.

What penetration values can I reasonably expect from:

1. An APFSDS round in this caliber?

2. An HEAP round from this gun?

3. A direct-firing GLATGM from this gun?

1. Lanz and Odermatt presented a detailed numerical simulation of a high performance 140mm gun that showed it was practical to achieve 1000mm of RHA penetration @ 2000 meters with conventional gun and penetrator technology.
2. The Soviet 152mm Br-2 could penetrate 180 of armor steel at 1800 meters with a naval APHE shell. This probably hasn't changed a whole lot, modern armor is tougher but so are modern shells.
3. 10 Cone diameters is a a typically cited figure for modern shaped charges. A cone is typically 0.9 the diameter of an ATGM. So 1350mm.

[Imperializt Russia]

Hello to one and all that are reading,

I'm relatively new when it comes to armored warfare, a lot to learn indeed...

I was wondering what you guys thought on missile tanks? More specifically, tanks with guided missiles as their primary weaponry.

My idea is to have them serve alongside my MBTs for indirect and direct support.

Any ideas?

Kruschev had something of a hard-on for missile tanks.
They worked poorly, but missile technology was limited in the 60s.

A "missile tank" is quite limited even today. Though ATGMs are typically very capable munitions, a vehicle only capable of deploying them is limited. It certainly cannot act as a battle tank.
The modern solution is to issue gun-launched (GL) ATGMs to battle tanks.

Ladies, gentlemen, Kyiv.

Let us suppose my nation utilizes the 2A83 tank gun.

What penetration values can I reasonably expect from:

1. An APFSDS round in this caliber?

2. An HEAP round from this gun?

3. A direct-firing GLATGM from this gun?

1. Lanz and Odermatt presented a detailed numerical simulation of a high performance 140mm gun that showed it was practical to achieve 1000mm of RHA penetration @ 2000 meters with conventional gun and penetrator technology.
2. The Soviet 152mm Br-2 could penetrate 180 of armor steel at 1800 meters with a naval APHE shell. This probably hasn't changed a whole lot, modern armor is tougher but so are modern shells.
3. 10 Cone diameters is a a typically cited figure for modern shaped charges. A cone is typically 0.9 the diameter of an ATGM. So 1350mm.

I am intrigued and excited by this prospect.

[Novorden]

Early WIP

Trying to mount a FLAADS(L) like system to my MTAV hull. I am sure absolutely nothing will go wrong...

[Albundica]

Jade Tiger Main Battle Tank
*factory bare version shown, fully loaded version detailed below

Overview

The Jade Tiger Main Battle Tank (production code QBW-1999A MBT) is the latest main battle tank to enter service with the Peoples Army of Albundica (PAA), and incorporates many modern technologies such as electronic fire control and composite armor. Developed for combat in the plains and foothills that surround Albundica, the Jade Tiger has a very low profile and makes use of an auto loaded 130mm ZL-30K gun which can fire gun launched anti tank missiles in addition to conventional rounds.

Protection

The Jade Tiger is protected by a multi layered protection system known as PROLAPS (Projectile Layored Protection System) which offers four levels of protection. The first level of protection is a thick layer of highly classified composite armor that is been proven effective against M829 rounds fired by captured M1A2 Abrams tanks utilizing 120mm L/44 guns. The second layer of protection is a mix of GKQ-4000 Explosive Reactive Armour (A locally produced and upgraded version of the Russian developed Kontakt-5) and RPG cages over vanuarable areas were ERA is unsuitable, such as engine air intakes. The third level of protection is similar to the Russian Shtora and Nakidka systems and is designed to make it harder for hostile forces to locate and target the tank. The fourth level of protection is a 350 degree active hard kill protection system known as the AMST-2000 which is an upgraded version of the Arena system.

Armament

The Jade Tiger's armament is fairly standard, comprising of a 130mm ZL-30K main gun, a GPT-M coaxial 7.62mm gun and a 12.7mm KuGM anti aircraft machine gun on the roof (RWS system currently under development). The Jade Tigers 130mm ZL-30K main gun can fire a wide variety of ammunition, including GLATGMs and depleted uranium KEP rounds, and is fed from an auto loading system. The auto loader allows for the Jade Tiger to have a crew of 3 and for an increased sustained fire rate. The auto loader is of the bustle type and holds 36 rounds (ATGMs included), with an additional 10 rounds in the hull. Coaxial armament is simple, with the coaxial variant of the venerable PGT-M being fitted. 4500 rounds are carried (both inside and outside the hull). The newly developed KuGM 12.7mm heavy machine gun is mounted on the turret roof with 700 rounds being carried, it has been confirmed that a RWS (remote weapons system) is under development for the weapon.

Fire Control, Electronics and Observation.

Fire accuracy for the main gun is maintained with a combination of lazer range finder, thermal cameras, wind/ weather sensors and an advanced ballistic computer. The ZL-30K main gun is fully stabilized and has hunter killer capabilities similar to the M1A2 Abrams (from captured examples of which a number of core technologies were developed). Both the commander and gunner have roof-mounted stabilized sights fitted with day/thermal sigts, a laser rangefinder and an auto tracker facility. The commander has a display showing the gunner's thermal sight, enabling the commander to fire the main gun. The tank is fitted with an advanced GPS system and a friendly ID system designed to limit friendly fire.

Propulsion

The Jade Tiger is powered by a mighty Winston-Co 2000 horse power diesel engine power pack which can be fully replaced within an hour. The Jade Tiger weights 59.3 tons giving it a power to weight ratio of 33.8 horse power per ton and a top speed of 78 kilometres per hour and a range on internal fuel tanks of 630 kilometres. Additional fuel drums can be fitted, increasing the range to 750 kilometres. Suspension is torsion bar with large road wheels and return rollers.

Crew

The Jade Tigers crew consists of three people, the tanks commander, the gunner and the driver. The gunner and commander are housed in the turret while the driver is housed in a central position beneath the glacis plate. The crew is provided with a heater and power generation capabilities.

Thoughts and improvements I could make?

[Allanea]

Ladies, gentlemen, Kyiv.

Let us suppose my nation utilizes the 2A83 tank gun.

What penetration values can I reasonably expect from:

1. An APFSDS round in this caliber?

2. An HEAP round from this gun?

3. A direct-firing GLATGM from this gun?

1. Lanz and Odermatt presented a detailed numerical simulation of a high performance 140mm gun that showed it was practical to achieve 1000mm of RHA penetration @ 2000 meters with conventional gun and penetrator technology.
2. The Soviet 152mm Br-2 could penetrate 180 of armor steel at 1800 meters with a naval APHE shell. This probably hasn't changed a whole lot, modern armor is tougher but so are modern shells.
3. 10 Cone diameters is a a typically cited figure for modern shaped charges. A cone is typically 0.9 the diameter of an ATGM. So 1350mm.

I don't understand this. If 10 cone diameters is a typical figure for modern shaped charges, how come a HEAP shell penetrates only 180mm of armor?

[Cerma]

Thanks,

ATGMs would make a good addition to Cerma's IFVs. By the way, would anybody know some tank artists open to commissions if I asked for tank designs for my nation?

[Vetok]

Thanks,

ATGMs would make a good addition to Cerma's IFVs. By the way, would anybody know some tank artists open to commissions if I asked for tank designs for my nation?

It's honestly not that hard to come out with something decent enough by doing it yourself. If you're looking to commission though, be prepared to pay top pound based on who it is and what you're looking for. If none on here are willing though, I can point you to two very good blokes from another forum.

[Connori Pilgrims]

1. Lanz and Odermatt presented a detailed numerical simulation of a high performance 140mm gun that showed it was practical to achieve 1000mm of RHA penetration @ 2000 meters with conventional gun and penetrator technology.
2. The Soviet 152mm Br-2 could penetrate 180 of armor steel at 1800 meters with a naval APHE shell. This probably hasn't changed a whole lot, modern armor is tougher but so are modern shells.
3. 10 Cone diameters is a a typically cited figure for modern shaped charges. A cone is typically 0.9 the diameter of an ATGM. So 1350mm.

I don't understand this. If 10 cone diameters is a typical figure for modern shaped charges, how come a HEAP shell penetrates only 180mm of armor?

HEAP is High-Explosive, Armour Piercing. I.e. a conventional full-bore AP round with an HE filler. Its not HEAT, which uses shaped charges.

[Allanea]

I don't understand this. If 10 cone diameters is a typical figure for modern shaped charges, how come a HEAP shell penetrates only 180mm of armor?

HEAP is High-Explosive, Armour Piercing. I.e. a conventional full-bore AP round with an HE filler. Its not HEAT, which uses shaped charges.

So an HEAT shell for a 152mm gun would have greater penetration than a HEAP shell?

[Proskoya]

What kind of qualities would help an armored vehicle excel in mountainous areas? 3/5 of my nation is just mountains and valleys and I have a vague idea of what might be useful (IFVs and the like ... I remember that the ZSU-23 had a variant made for Afghanistan specifically so it could be used as a monstrous lead thrower). Considering my isolationist and landlocked nature, would I want to adopt the Merkava approach or should I consider other options?

[Allanea]

So how does your nation transport food and other products to its citizens?

[Proskoya]

So how does your nation transport food and other products to its citizens?

Roads follow the valleys that aren't flooded. It's not usual that a road leads through or over a mountain.

[Kouralia]

So how does your nation transport food and other products to its citizens?

Tu95s filled with tinned bacon jerky

[Padnak]

-snip-

Stonk

very stonk

[Allanea]

So how does your nation transport food and other products to its citizens?

Tu95s filled with tinned bacon jerky

Best national economy.

[Padnak]

I just got possibly the best worst idea in the history of NS

hear me out here

We take a heavy tank chasis, a bunch (thinking four) FROG-7 missiles, we mount the missiles on the chassis

and we use it as a dirrect fire weapon in urban combat

yes

[Kouralia]

Tu95s filled with tinned bacon jerky

Best national economy.

Kourstan stronk

[Arcerion]

Thanks,

ATGMs would make a good addition to Cerma's IFVs. By the way, would anybody know some tank artists open to commissions if I asked for tank designs for my nation?

It's honestly not that hard to come out with something decent enough by doing it yourself. If you're looking to commission though, be prepared to pay top pound based on who it is and what you're looking for. If none on here are willing though, I can point you to two very good blokes from another forum.

Eh, I have some free time this weekend. I could do something pro bono.

[Allanea]

If only there was some way to deliver 450 kilograms of explosives in direct-fire that does not involve a 2.5-ton ballistic missile 9 meters long.

[Padnak]

If only there was some way to deliver 450 kilograms of explosives in direct-fire that does not involve a 2.5-ton ballistic missile 9 meters long.

you're right, its a bad idea

direct fire scuds are the only reasonable way to approach this