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[NSGS] Elizia Constitutional Convention

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MERIZoC
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Postby MERIZoC » Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:19 am

House of Judah wrote:
Nariterrr wrote:I will address these concerns anyone would have

1. Yes, the President is both the Head of State and government and that comes with power, however, my President is clearly and coherently checked in a sufficient manner. In fact, my proposal places more restrictions on the executive than that of Altantica, who places little restriction on the Council. Also note that it is the Cabinet's job to manage the day to day affairs of government with the Presidents overside,
2. I think that it should be up to the people to decide (there really isn't much difference though), my proposal allows for a simple vote of no confidence on the office of President.
3. The President should not be a member of the Senate, in my opinion separation of powers is necessary,
4. My proposal allows for the President to choose his ministers and aids coherently, however said ministers require the confidence of the Parliament.
5. My proposal grants the President to appoint ambassadors to foreign states (the admins are automatic members of the Supreme Court). While my proposal does not require the advice and consent of the Parliament, said indiviuals can be removed by a recall vote with a simple majority.


1. Due respect, but it is my belief that it is best if the role of the executive is to execute those duties and responsibilities as has been deemed appropriate by the legislature in their role as representatives of the people. This ensures that the executive is not only checked but indeed serves the people by being entirely dependent on the people's representatives and further avoids the often untenable situation of cohabitation between an executive and legislature that are mutually hostile. We have seen the dangers of such situations when we look at the government shut downs that the United States has faced during the past decade when one party controlled the executive and the other the legislature.

2. This proposal also allows for a simple motion of no confidence, but also allows the legislature to, if it shall determine a more desirable means of selecting an executive, to do so without a need for amending the constitution according to the protocols that we shall establish at this convention.

3. A separation of powers is unnecessary in that there is sufficient check on the power of the legislature in the form of constitutional restrictions and the judiciary. The role of the executive is to carry out the day to day affairs of the nation, and acting beyond this role only in times of emergency. Matters of policy should be the province only of the legislature.

4. There is either confidence in the government as a whole or there is not. The president is the chief actor for the executive which serves the legislature, and so should have the authority to appoint his cabinet as he needs to provided he has the confidence of the legislature. It is worth noting however that the legislature may, if it deems necessary, make those ministerial posts ones which require their expressed consent to appoint as the language does not forbid such a reservation.

5. This is a minor quibbling point, but since the ambassadors serve the people and their representatives in the legislature and not the President, it is only right and proper that the legislature hold authority over the appointment to the post. [And that's great and all but 1) the admins run the RP, but the judiciary is an IC body that doesn't necessarily need to be the admin team and it may enhance the RP to have not be and 2) we still need an IC way that the judiciary gets selected.]

Merizoc wrote:"Selected by the senate"

Does this mean confidence, or the dumbass way we chose the interim president?

It's also worth noting that a president is almost always, if not always, elected by the people, not the legislature.

It says "Selected by the Senate in accordance with their own protocols and holds the post until a demonstration of no confidence in the President of Elizia by the Senate." If the Senate should bizarrely choose the to utilize the same system, the President would still be obliged to maintain the confidence of the Senate.

And it is indeed not always, though the use of the term President here is not necessary. Just as with the term Senate, if we should choose another term for such an office, the text can easily be amended to use that language instead. I merely selected it in place of the term Prime Minister as Prime Minister seemed inappropriate for the nature of the office I proposed.

Let's have a chancellor. :D

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Maklohi Vai
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Postby Maklohi Vai » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:03 pm

Merizoc wrote:Let's have a chancellor. :D

Ve may run into some... problems. Image
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Arkolon
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Postby Arkolon » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:29 pm

I have to say that Chancellor sounds really cool.
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Collatis
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Postby Collatis » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:40 pm

Maklohi Vai wrote:
Merizoc wrote:Let's have a chancellor. :D

Ve may run into some... problems. Image

Image

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MERIZoC
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Postby MERIZoC » Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:44 pm

Since ark gave me the go ahead I'm proposing a day 11 to make final amendments to the day 10 product, since it will be useful to polish it up before finishing.

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United Provinces of Atlantica
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Postby United Provinces of Atlantica » Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:47 pm

Merizoc wrote:Since ark gave me the go ahead I'm proposing a day 11 to make final amendments to the day 10 product, since it will be useful to polish it up before finishing.

Seconded.
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Nariterrr
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Postby Nariterrr » Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:53 pm

Merizoc wrote:Since ark gave me the go ahead I'm proposing a day 11 to make final amendments to the day 10 product, since it will be useful to polish it up before finishing.

Seconded
Honestly who knows what about anything anymore.

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Nariterrr
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Postby Nariterrr » Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:13 pm

"Mr. Speaker, I am a bit confused, could the Hon. Mem please submit his draft on the executive."
Honestly who knows what about anything anymore.

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Arkolon
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Postby Arkolon » Tue Aug 02, 2016 3:36 pm

Nariterrr wrote:"Mr. Speaker, I am a bit confused, could the Hon. Mem please submit his draft on the executive."

"He has, hasn't he? Could the Hon Gentleman clarify his question?"
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Nariterrr
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Postby Nariterrr » Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:10 pm

Arkolon wrote:
Nariterrr wrote:"Mr. Speaker, I am a bit confused, could the Hon. Mem please submit his draft on the executive."

"He has, hasn't he? Could the Hon Gentleman clarify his question?"

Where can I see the draft presented to this chamber. From what I gathered, the bullet points were on matters of discussion. I am trying to find the proposal itself."
Honestly who knows what about anything anymore.

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Arkolon
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Postby Arkolon » Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:14 pm

Nariterrr wrote:
Arkolon wrote:"He has, hasn't he? Could the Hon Gentleman clarify his question?"

Where can I see the draft presented to this chamber. From what I gathered, the bullet points were on matters of discussion. I am trying to find the proposal itself."

"I believe that that was the proposal, just without numbers or articles."
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Nariterrr
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Postby Nariterrr » Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:15 pm

Arkolon wrote:
Nariterrr wrote:Where can I see the draft presented to this chamber. From what I gathered, the bullet points were on matters of discussion. I am trying to find the proposal itself."

"I believe that that was the proposal, just without numbers or articles."

"Oh oh oh oh, I am terribly sorry I misunderstood that. "

"I like the proposal, but I fail to see how it differs from mine, could the honorable member please tell us why his proposal is different that mine.
Honestly who knows what about anything anymore.

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Arkolon
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Postby Arkolon » Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:25 pm

An eleventh day will be added to the agenda so that the Constitution may be properly formatted, overviewed and organised. This period of deliberation, Day Nine, will also be exceptionally extended by 12 hours.
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Britanno 3
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Postby Britanno 3 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:45 am

So are we allowed to have more time for submitting ideas about the executive then? I'm confused.
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Arkolon
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Postby Arkolon » Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:33 pm

Britanno 3 wrote:So are we allowed to have more time for submitting ideas about the executive then? I'm confused.

No, it was exceptional. Something along the lines of an OOC impediment.
"Revisionism is nothing else than a theoretic generalisation made from the angle of the isolated capitalist. Where does this viewpoint belong theoretically if not in vulgar bourgeois economics?"
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Britanno 3
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Postby Britanno 3 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:08 pm

My only issue with it is that we don't have a proposal that offers a system where executive power isn't vested into one position apart from a weird system that realistically has no chance of getting enough support. I actually began to write one about 10 minutes before you posted that time was up for the executive proposals, and seen as by that point I'd basically only sorted out a format for posting it, I didn't bother continuing. I just thought that if a late proposal was permitted it might not be a bad idea to allow a late proposal that represents the views of those that want separate people as head of state and head of government to avoid concentrating too much power in one place. Just my two cents anyways.
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Nariterrr
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Postby Nariterrr » Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:15 pm

Britanno 3 wrote:My only issue with it is that we don't have a proposal that offers a system where executive power isn't vested into one position apart from a weird system that realistically has no chance of getting enough support. I actually began to write one about 10 minutes before you posted that time was up for the executive proposals, and seen as by that point I'd basically only sorted out a format for posting it, I didn't bother continuing. I just thought that if a late proposal was permitted it might not be a bad idea to allow a late proposal that represents the views of those that want separate people as head of state and head of government to avoid concentrating too much power in one place. Just my two cents anyways.

"My system has a good balance. The President is the head of state and government, but day to day governance is done by the Cabinet."
Honestly who knows what about anything anymore.

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Arkolon
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Postby Arkolon » Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:26 pm

Britanno 3 wrote:My only issue with it is that we don't have a proposal that offers a system where executive power isn't vested into one position apart from a weird system that realistically has no chance of getting enough support. I actually began to write one about 10 minutes before you posted that time was up for the executive proposals, and seen as by that point I'd basically only sorted out a format for posting it, I didn't bother continuing. I just thought that if a late proposal was permitted it might not be a bad idea to allow a late proposal that represents the views of those that want separate people as head of state and head of government to avoid concentrating too much power in one place. Just my two cents anyways.

Hera had asked me (by proxy) only one or two days after the executive day ended and it was (apparently) ready to go, so we waited until the last day to discuss other matters to include this proposal that couldn't be posted due to OOC reasons. If you want to start writing a proposal now, especially considering how we're supposed to be voting now, I'm going to have to say sorry, it's a bit too late for that now. I'm not convinced it's a position many people hold (merging HoS and HoG is something a lot of us wanted to try out in the new iteration) anyway, and even if I did consider it it might just waste our time since neither am I convinced it has a solid chance of beating the other proposals. I hope you can see how this circumstance differs from Hera's.
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Britanno 3
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Postby Britanno 3 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:54 pm

Arkolon wrote:Hera had asked me (by proxy) only one or two days after the executive day ended and it was (apparently) ready to go, so we waited until the last day to discuss other matters to include this proposal that couldn't be posted due to OOC reasons. If you want to start writing a proposal now, especially considering how we're supposed to be voting now, I'm going to have to say sorry, it's a bit too late for that now. I'm not convinced it's a position many people hold (merging HoS and HoG is something a lot of us wanted to try out in the new iteration) anyway, and even if I did consider it it might just waste our time since neither am I convinced it has a solid chance of beating the other proposals. I hope you can see how this circumstance differs from Hera's.

Oh yeah completely understood. I just thought it was worth asking so that I didn't regret not doing anything. I knew it was a bit of a stretch so thanks anyway.
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Arkolon
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Postby Arkolon » Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:10 pm

According to this, we still need at least one proposal regarding devolution, federalism, constituencies, and provinces. The only current proposal so far is Ainin's. We'll have to wait.
"Revisionism is nothing else than a theoretic generalisation made from the angle of the isolated capitalist. Where does this viewpoint belong theoretically if not in vulgar bourgeois economics?"
Rosa Luxemburg

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MERIZoC
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby MERIZoC » Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:35 pm

Arkolon wrote:
Britanno 3 wrote:My only issue with it is that we don't have a proposal that offers a system where executive power isn't vested into one position apart from a weird system that realistically has no chance of getting enough support. I actually began to write one about 10 minutes before you posted that time was up for the executive proposals, and seen as by that point I'd basically only sorted out a format for posting it, I didn't bother continuing. I just thought that if a late proposal was permitted it might not be a bad idea to allow a late proposal that represents the views of those that want separate people as head of state and head of government to avoid concentrating too much power in one place. Just my two cents anyways.

Hera had asked me (by proxy) only one or two days after the executive day ended and it was (apparently) ready to go, so we waited until the last day to discuss other matters to include this proposal that couldn't be posted due to OOC reasons. If you want to start writing a proposal now, especially considering how we're supposed to be voting now, I'm going to have to say sorry, it's a bit too late for that now. I'm not convinced it's a position many people hold (merging HoS and HoG is something a lot of us wanted to try out in the new iteration) anyway, and even if I did consider it it might just waste our time since neither am I convinced it has a solid chance of beating the other proposals. I hope you can see how this circumstance differs from Hera's.

For the record, I would support such a proposal, if it's what I think it is, so I don't think you should dismiss it because of reasonings of support

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Arkolon
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Postby Arkolon » Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:44 pm

We're only accepting at least 1 more proposal on devolution et al. and Hera's case was purely exceptional. I'm going to say sorry, too late to those wishing to write a new proposal now. You most definitely had the time from then till now.
Last edited by Arkolon on Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Revisionism is nothing else than a theoretic generalisation made from the angle of the isolated capitalist. Where does this viewpoint belong theoretically if not in vulgar bourgeois economics?"
Rosa Luxemburg

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Nariterrr
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Postby Nariterrr » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:28 pm

Arkolon wrote:We're only accepting at least 1 more proposal on devolution et al. and Hera's case was purely exceptional. I'm going to say sorry, too late to those wishing to write a new proposal now. You most definitely had the time from then till now.

"Could you clarify?"
Last edited by Nariterrr on Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Honestly who knows what about anything anymore.

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Arkolon
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Postby Arkolon » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:33 pm

Nariterrr wrote:
Arkolon wrote:We're only accepting at least 1 more proposal on devolution et al. and Hera's case was purely exceptional. I'm going to say sorry, too late to those wishing to write a new proposal now. You most definitely had the time from then till now.

"Could you clarify?"

Heraklea posted a proposal for the executive, but it was very late, and there are reasons the proposal was accepted. That is, it's an exceptional case and we won't be accepting any more really really late and last-minute proposals. We're only accepting 1 more, an alternative to Ainin's proposal on devolution, since that's the last thing we need before we get voting.

This is all OOC by the way.
"Revisionism is nothing else than a theoretic generalisation made from the angle of the isolated capitalist. Where does this viewpoint belong theoretically if not in vulgar bourgeois economics?"
Rosa Luxemburg

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Nariterrr
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Postby Nariterrr » Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:04 am

Honestly who knows what about anything anymore.

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