NSG Senate Chamber [NSG Senate]

[Polvia]

All things are real property. Everything, unless the property in question does not exist.

Real property is a legal term. It means (in short):all land, structures, firmly attached and integrated equipment (such as light fixtures or a well pump), anything growing on the land.

[The Zeonic States]

...Never thought i would say it but i agree with the Liberal.

That said if the State claims it entirely diffrent story.

They should be able to do with it what they will but regarding the Private sector oh yes the individual should be the final arbiter.

Ha! I'm not a Liberal, I'm a Libertarian. We probably share a lot of economic views.

And furthering my point i only support this Notion if the Individual is entirely responsible for the creation of said property.

In Your example if a Privately held corperate interest funded the venture i believe they should maintain rights to it.

And Quite Possibly although again possibly not given i support the Public Market Theory.

[Belmaria]

Perhaps you would be wiling to support the clause if it was changed to Real Property? That's pretty much referring all land ,anything growing on the land, and those permanent or integrated equipment such as a house, well, crops, et cetera on the land. That might offer less abusive potential of the property clause, or are you opposed to a clause on property in general?

Private land ownership is most definately still private property. I would personally like to see it changed to "personal property", though would be accepting of it if it was simply changed to "property", as it does not explicitly support the establishment of private property.

So, if I spend years working on developing a super metal and want to sell it for a little while with a patent, you're saying that should be illegal? That product that I worked for YEARS to produce? You don't think that I have the rights to that, even if just for a few years? Do you think you should just be able to free-load off of me because you automatically deserve what I spent YEARS to make?! Do you feel entitled to MY creation? AS IF IT WERE YOUR OWN?!?!?! That is just sick! I do NOT agree! If I make something good, I should be able to patent it because I WORKED HARD ON IT! I should have a right to my intellectual property!

No, what is sick as that you believe you can keep for yourself what belongs to everyone. There is a word for taking what does not belong exclusively to you and claiming it as your own. That word is theft.

So, what I work hard for just automatically belongs to everyone? I believe that you taking my life's work would be theft, not the other way around!

[Threlizdun]

Ha! I'm not a Liberal, I'm a Libertarian. We probably share a lot of economic views.

No, given your previous statements, you are most likely a classical liberal, not a libertarian.

[The Treorai]

Perhaps you would be wiling to support the clause if it was changed to Real Property? That's pretty much referring all land ,anything growing on the land, and those permanent or integrated equipment such as a house, well, crops, et cetera on the land. That might offer less abusive potential of the property clause, or are you opposed to a clause on property in general?

Private land ownership is most definately still private property. I would personally like to see it changed to "personal property", though would be accepting of it if it was simply changed to "property", as it does not explicitly support the establishment of private property.

So, if I spend years working on developing a super metal and want to sell it for a little while with a patent, you're saying that should be illegal? That product that I worked for YEARS to produce? You don't think that I have the rights to that, even if just for a few years? Do you think you should just be able to free-load off of me because you automatically deserve what I spent YEARS to make?! Do you feel entitled to MY creation? AS IF IT WERE YOUR OWN?!?!?! That is just sick! I do NOT agree! If I make something good, I should be able to patent it because I WORKED HARD ON IT! I should have a right to my intellectual property!

No, what is sick as that you believe you can keep for yourself what belongs to everyone. There is a word for taking what does not belong exclusively to you and claiming it as your own. That word is theft.

He created it, so it is not everyone's. It is his.

[Threlizdun]

So, what I work hard for just automatically belongs to everyone? I believe that you taking my life's work would be theft, not the other way around!

The means of production automatically belong to everyone. It is once you claim them as your own that it becomes theft.

[Belmaria]

All things are real property. Everything, unless the property in question does not exist.

Real property is a legal term. It means (in short):all land, structures, firmly attached and integrated equipment (such as light fixtures or a well pump), anything growing on the land.

So, would a laptop (not firmly attached to anything) be considered real property? If not, would the government be able to take my laptop from me?

[Mishmahig]

So, what I work hard for just automatically belongs to everyone? I believe that you taking my life's work would be theft, not the other way around!

The means of production automatically belong to everyone. It is once you claim them as your own that it becomes theft.

Source, please. Or at least explain this further.

[Regnum Dominae]

All things are real property. Everything, unless the property in question does not exist.

Real property is a legal term. It means (in short):all land, structures, firmly attached and integrated equipment (such as light fixtures or a well pump), anything growing on the land.

Which would mean that money is not real property. Which would give the state license to confiscate all my money.
EDIT: And my computer.

[The Treorai]

So, what I work hard for just automatically belongs to everyone? I believe that you taking my life's work would be theft, not the other way around!

The means of production automatically belong to everyone. It is once you claim them as your own that it becomes theft.

No. Just... No.

[Threlizdun]

He created it, so it is not everyone's. It is his.

As a mean of production, it is everyone's. Having it any other way would be justifying theft, torture, slavery, rape, and murder.

[Belmaria]

So, what I work hard for just automatically belongs to everyone? I believe that you taking my life's work would be theft, not the other way around!

The means of production automatically belong to everyone. It is once you claim them as your own that it becomes theft.

When things belong to everyone, there is little incentive and the economy collapses. So, logically, that would not wise to implement.

[The Treorai]

He created it, so it is not everyone's. It is his.

As a mean of production, it is everyone's. Having it any other way would be justifying theft, torture, slavery, rape, and murder.

Source?

[Belmaria]

He created it, so it is not everyone's. It is his.

As a mean of production, it is everyone's. Having it any other way would be justifying theft, torture, slavery, rape, and murder.

I'd love to hear your logic behind this

[Regnum Dominae]

He created it, so it is not everyone's. It is his.

As a mean of production, it is everyone's. Having it any other way would be justifying theft, torture, slavery, rape, and murder.

No, it is not. I own it, I have every right to have absolute control over its use. No one else does.
regarding the underlined: what the fuck? And actually, communism justifies slavery and theft.

[Bleckonia]

No, what is sick as that you believe you can keep for yourself what belongs to everyone. There is a word for taking what does not belong exclusively to you and claiming it as your own. That word is theft.

When you invent something, it belongs to you, not everyone else. YOU should be able to make money off what you worked hard to create. Making everything public eliminates motivation for innovation. The only exception is if the invention would save lives and the owner is being a moron and trying to charge a million dollars for it. But if Joe Smith creates a special type of kitchen appliances, he should be able to get a patent so freeloaders can't steal money that he made working hard.

[The Zeonic States]

So, what I work hard for just automatically belongs to everyone? I believe that you taking my life's work would be theft, not the other way around!

The means of production automatically belong to everyone. It is once you claim them as your own that it becomes theft.

...That just sickens me to my core.

And the sad part is you most likely believe that.

[Belmaria]

As a mean of production, it is everyone's. Having it any other way would be justifying theft, torture, slavery, rape, and murder.

No, it is not. I own it, I have every right to have absolute control over its use. No one else does.
regarding the underlined: what the fuck? And actually, communism justifies slavery and theft.

I agree completely.

[Bleckonia]

The means of production automatically belong to everyone. It is once you claim them as your own that it becomes theft.

...That just sickens me to my core.

And the sad part is you most likely believe that.

That's why I'm an anti-communist. Because their ideology is batcrap crazy.

[Polvia]

Real property is a legal term. It means (in short):all land, structures, firmly attached and integrated equipment (such as light fixtures or a well pump), anything growing on the land.

Which would mean that money is not real property. Which would give the state license to confiscate all my money.
EDIT: And my computer.

I could agree to adding personal property to the clause as well, so long as the clause further specifies that income and taxation of income are not in violation of the clause.

[Regnum Dominae]

No, it is not. I own it, I have every right to have absolute control over its use. No one else does.
regarding the underlined: what the fuck? And actually, communism justifies slavery and theft.

I agree completely.

I mean, I think that copyright could be reformed (there´s no point in a state granted monopoly 90 years after the death of the creator, and I also think that the RIAA needs to calm the fuck down in general) but I am supportive of the general concept.

[Bleckonia]

Which would mean that money is not real property. Which would give the state license to confiscate all my money.
EDIT: And my computer.

I could agree to adding personal property to the clause as well, so long as the clause further specifies that income and taxation of income are not in violation of the clause.

I can't believe I actually agree with the chair of the Red-Greens.

[Belmaria]

Which would mean that money is not real property. Which would give the state license to confiscate all my money.
EDIT: And my computer.

I could agree to adding personal property to the clause as well, so long as the clause further specifies that income and taxation of income are not in violation of the clause.

Even as a libertarian (Or classical liberal as some have called me, although I would prefer to be called a neo-classical liberal as that would be the correct term) I agree. I believe in an income tax, so long as it is flat.

[Belmaria]

I agree completely.

I mean, I think that copyright could be reformed (there´s no point in a state granted monopoly 90 years after the death of the creator, and I also think that the RIAA needs to calm the fuck down in general) but I am supportive of the general concept.

Once again, I agree. But this type of nit-picking doesn't belong in a bill of rights. Let the laws dictate the specifics.

[Threlizdun]

Source, please. Or at least explain this further.

In a natural state, there is no single entity laying claim to all. Everything initially belongs to everyone. It is when we lay claim to particular things that it becomes our property. When this an inconsequential item or an item that is used for personal use rather than for societal production, then this a fine practice of acquiring personal property, which abolutely should be protected. Finished products such as your clothes for example are personal property.

Ownership of the means of production ultimately effects all who are dependent upon them. By claiming ownership of them, you are claiming that what several people need is now exclusively yours. This is something they rely upon, and they have now had it taken from them. Factories, land, and the deposits of natural resources are examples of the means of production.