[NSGS] Elizia Constitutional Convention

[Nariterrr]

"Mr. President, I motion that we prohibit members of the provincial government from holding seats in the next government until after the period that the next government dissolves. This is to allow other Senators to also be a part of government."

(OOC: My concern is that members of the current government will also carry to be members of the next government, my intention is to allow all players to have a chance at being a part of government.)

[The Sarian]

"Mr. President, I motion that we prohibit members of the provincial government from holding seats in the next government until after the period that the next government dissolves. This is to allow other Senators to also be a part of government."

(OOC: My concern is that members of the current government will also carry to be members of the next government, my intention is to allow all players to have a chance at being a part of government.)

I second the motion if the honourable member vows to forever exclude the SLP, and all members of the SLP from when they inevitably splinter and die, from government. This is to ensure this does not have selfish intentions.

(OOC: My concern is that members of the SLP want to be members of the next government, my intention is to allow players that aren't the SLP to have a chance a being a part of government)

[Nariterrr]

"Mr. President, I motion that we prohibit members of the provincial government from holding seats in the next government until after the period that the next government dissolves. This is to allow other Senators to also be a part of government."

(OOC: My concern is that members of the current government will also carry to be members of the next government, my intention is to allow all players to have a chance at being a part of government.)

I second the motion if the honourable member vows to forever exclude the SLP, and all members of the SLP from when they inevitably splinter and die, from government. This is to ensure this does not have selfish intentions.

(OOC: My concern is that members of the SLP want to be members of the next government, my intention is to allow players that aren't the SLP to have a chance a being a part of government)

The SLP is, and will probably never be in government (without a coalition), I proposed this motion to allow all Senators to have a shot at gaining government office. It's not fair if we consistently continue to elect the same people who appoint the same people.You are not a member of the cabinet or the President, so you can still be in office. Maybe I should have clarified that.

[Nariterrr]

"Nevermind, I redact my motion"

[Nariterrr]

"As this is coming to a close, I urge all my fellow members to vote for the Presidental System. Not only is it easy to manage and more productive than the directorial system, it is also very fair, democratic, and puts power in conducting day-to-day affairs in the Cabinet. In many ways, my proposal is Atlantica's just with a President. We have seen Presidental Democracies work, we can make this one work, in the name of democracy. A directory will be hard to manage, unorganized, and clustered, with a President as the head of state and government and a cabinet with the majority of day-to-day power, we can establish both a Presidental and Directorial system of governance in a way that is most effective."

[Arkolon]

The Seventh Day is now over. We will move onto the Eighth Day, where the Convention shall draft and submit proposals regarding elections. Deliberation shall last 72 hours.

[United Provinces of Atlantica]

Mr, Speaker, it is my pleasure to introduce a proposal regarding elections to this Convention.

[Nariterrr]

Mr, Speaker, it is my pleasure to introduce a proposal regarding elections to this Convention.

"We can't see it."

[United Provinces of Atlantica]

Mr, Speaker, it is my pleasure to introduce a proposal regarding elections to this Convention.

"We can't see it."

"My apologies for that error. It has been corrected."

[Arkolon]

The Eighth Day is now over. We will move onto the Ninth Day, where the Convention shall draft and submit proposals for all other concerns. Deliberation shall last 72 hours.

[Nariterrr]

I submit this proposal

[United Provinces of Atlantica]

"I also submit two competing proposals that deal with commencement and amendments respectively, available here and here. The competing commencement chapters are somewhat similar, but my proposal is more detailed and specifies depositories and publishing for the Constitution of Elizia. It also contains a short final statement, essentially meant to specify the intentions of the drafters of this Constitution. The amendment chapters are quite a bit different, as I believe that the entrenchment of certain clauses is necessary to protect the rights of Elizians; I decided that making a few clauses absolutely unmodifiable, notably the most basic human rights and judicial review, are necessary to ensure that the most fundamental and inalienable of rights, and the tools necessary to protect those rights, must remain for eternity. The numbered Articles are intended to be the numbered Articles I've been compiling in a Constitution where all of my preferred proposals are adopted, and a preamble that is an addition to the excellent work of Dr. Mourani's proposed Preamble, and can be viewed here.

On a different note, I have decided to introduce additional Chapters on an ombudsman-type agency, a civil service and public sector monitoring agency, and a wholly nonbinding Chapter stating what I believe should be the guiding principles of Elizian politics and democracy and the fundamental duties of the Elizian state to its citizens are. The three Chapters can viewed here, here and here."

[Nariterrr]

"I also submit two competing proposals that deal with commencement and amendments respectively, available here and here. The competing commencement chapters are somewhat similar, but my proposal is more detailed and specifies depositories and publishing for the Constitution of Elizia. It also contains a short final statement, essentially meant to specify the intentions of the drafters of this Constitution. The amendment chapters are quite a bit different, as I believe that the entrenchment of certain clauses is necessary to protect the rights of Elizians; I decided that making a few clauses absolutely unmodifiable, notably the most basic human rights and judicial review, are necessary to ensure that the most fundamental and inalienable of rights, and the tools necessary to protect those rights, must remain for eternity. The numbered Articles are intended to be the numbered Articles I've been compiling in a Constitution where all of my preferred proposals are adopted, and a preamble that is an addition to the excellent work of Dr. Mourani's proposed Preamble, and can be viewed here.

On a different note, I have decided to introduce additional Chapters on an ombudsman-type agency, a civil service and public sector monitoring agency, and a wholly nonbinding Chapter stating what I believe should be the guiding principles of Elizian politics and democracy and the fundamental duties of the Elizian state to its citizens are. The three Chapters can viewed here, here and here."

I find it very rude that the member thinks that he can put together the whole Constitution without even noting that there is still voting to be done. This is very rude. For one, the member doesn't know if his Directory proposal will pass, or that all the other proposals will pass. This is an affront on the votes and opinions of the people and I ask that the member removes the link as it is an absolute disgrace that he thinks he can judge how we will vote.

[Belmaria]

"I also submit two competing proposals that deal with commencement and amendments respectively, available here and here. The competing commencement chapters are somewhat similar, but my proposal is more detailed and specifies depositories and publishing for the Constitution of Elizia. It also contains a short final statement, essentially meant to specify the intentions of the drafters of this Constitution. The amendment chapters are quite a bit different, as I believe that the entrenchment of certain clauses is necessary to protect the rights of Elizians; I decided that making a few clauses absolutely unmodifiable, notably the most basic human rights and judicial review, are necessary to ensure that the most fundamental and inalienable of rights, and the tools necessary to protect those rights, must remain for eternity. The numbered Articles are intended to be the numbered Articles I've been compiling in a Constitution where all of my preferred proposals are adopted, and a preamble that is an addition to the excellent work of Dr. Mourani's proposed Preamble, and can be viewed here.

On a different note, I have decided to introduce additional Chapters on an ombudsman-type agency, a civil service and public sector monitoring agency, and a wholly nonbinding Chapter stating what I believe should be the guiding principles of Elizian politics and democracy and the fundamental duties of the Elizian state to its citizens are. The three Chapters can viewed here, here and here."

I find it very rude that the member thinks that he can put together the whole Constitution without even noting that there is still voting to be done. This is very rude. For one, the member doesn't know if his Directory proposal will pass, or that all the other proposals will pass. This is an affront on the votes and opinions of the people and I ask that the member removes the link as it is an absolute disgrace that he thinks he can judge how we will vote.

I apologize for the sensitivities of the leader of my party. While I do not speak for my party, I personally have no problem with the submission of multiple provisions to this convention. In fact, I find it insulting how the member implied that we are not intelligent enough as a body to vote for proposals which coincide with our preferred system of government.

[United Provinces of Atlantica]

I find it very rude that the member thinks that he can put together the whole Constitution without even noting that there is still voting to be done. This is very rude. For one, the member doesn't know if his Directory proposal will pass, or that all the other proposals will pass. This is an affront on the votes and opinions of the people and I ask that the member removes the link as it is an absolute disgrace that he thinks he can judge how we will vote.

I apologize for the sensitivities of the leader of my party. While I do not speak for my party, I personally have no problem with the submission of multiple provisions to this convention. In fact, I find it insulting how the member implied that we are not intelligent enough as a body to vote for proposals which coincide with our preferred system of government.

"I think you for your apology of your party member's actions."

[MERIZoC]

Constitutional Amendments
1. A member may propose amendments to the constitution of Elizia
2. Such amendments will be considered the same as all other bills, requiring the same amount of sponsors, and subjected to a simple majority vote.

Submitting this because fuck having a 2/3ds majority to amend shit.

[House of Judah]

Because of the troubling natures of the other proposals for the executive, this has been assembled as an other matter for us to discuss. This has been cleared with the convention president.

The executive powers of the Federation of Elizia are invested in the President of Elizia who is both head of state and of government for Elizia.
The President of Elizia is selected by the Senate in accordance with their own protocols and holds the post until a demonstration of no confidence in the President of Elizia by the Senate.
The President of Elizia must meet such requirements as to be a member of the Senate. The President of Elizia is not required to be a member of the Senate nor shall membership in the Senate be disqualifying from holding the office.
The President of Elizia may appoint such assistants as he may find necessary or are required by law to head the ministries of the government and advise the President of Elizia on all matters related to duties of the office.
The President of Elizia may, with the explicit consent of the Senate, appoint ambassadors to foreign states and justices to the Supreme Court of Elizia and any other office which the Senate finds should require their expressed approval to appoint. All other offices of the government may be appointed by the President of Elizia with the implicit approval of the Senate’s confidence. The President of Elizia may appoint any office requiring the explicit approval of the Senate which is vacant when the Senate is in recess and such appointments shall expire at the end of the next session of the Senate unless the Senate shall give its expressed approval.
The President of Elizia is the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Elizia.
The President of Elizia will receive and accredit ambassadors and diplomats of foreign states.
The President of Elizia may, with the explicit consent of the Senate, enter into treaties.
The President of Elizia may grant reprieves or pardons for offences against Elizia except in cases of impeachment.
The Vice President of Elizia is appointed by the President of Elizia to be the President of Elizia’s principal assistant. Among the other duties that may be delegated to the Vice President of Elizia by law or by the President of Elizia, the Vice President of Elizia assumes the powers of the President of Elizia in an acting role only at any time the President of Elizia is unable to discharge the responsibilities of the office until the President of Elizia can once more discharge the duties of the office or a new President of Elizia has been selected by the Senate.

[Arkolon]

Abdul Razman naturally allows the presentation and debate of this proposal for the executive. It will be debated during Day Nine alongside "other matters".

[Nariterrr]

Because of the troubling natures of the other proposals for the executive, this has been assembled as an other matter for us to discuss. This has been cleared with the convention president.

The executive powers of the Federation of Elizia are invested in the President of Elizia who is both head of state and of government for Elizia.
The President of Elizia is selected by the Senate in accordance with their own protocols and holds the post until a demonstration of no confidence in the President of Elizia by the Senate.
The President of Elizia must meet such requirements as to be a member of the Senate. The President of Elizia is not required to be a member of the Senate nor shall membership in the Senate be disqualifying from holding the office.
The President of Elizia may appoint such assistants as he may find necessary or are required by law to head the ministries of the government and advise the President of Elizia on all matters related to duties of the office.
The President of Elizia may, with the explicit consent of the Senate, appoint ambassadors to foreign states and justices to the Supreme Court of Elizia and any other office which the Senate finds should require their expressed approval to appoint. All other offices of the government may be appointed by the President of Elizia with the implicit approval of the Senate’s confidence. The President of Elizia may appoint any office requiring the explicit approval of the Senate which is vacant when the Senate is in recess and such appointments shall expire at the end of the next session of the Senate unless the Senate shall give its expressed approval.
The President of Elizia is the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Elizia.
The President of Elizia will receive and accredit ambassadors and diplomats of foreign states.
The President of Elizia may, with the explicit consent of the Senate, enter into treaties.
The President of Elizia may grant reprieves or pardons for offences against Elizia except in cases of impeachment.
The Vice President of Elizia is appointed by the President of Elizia to be the President of Elizia’s principal assistant. Among the other duties that may be delegated to the Vice President of Elizia by law or by the President of Elizia, the Vice President of Elizia assumes the powers of the President of Elizia in an acting role only at any time the President of Elizia is unable to discharge the responsibilities of the office until the President of Elizia can once more discharge the duties of the office or a new President of Elizia has been selected by the Senate.

I will address these concerns anyone would have

1. Yes, the President is both the Head of State and government and that comes with power, however, my President is clearly and coherently checked in a sufficient manner. In fact, my proposal places more restrictions on the executive than that of Altantica, who places little restriction on the Council. Also note that it is the Cabinet's job to manage the day to day affairs of government with the Presidents overside,
2. I think that it should be up to the people to decide (there really isn't much difference though), my proposal allows for a simple vote of no confidence on the office of President.
3. The President should not be a member of the Senate, in my opinion separation of powers is necessary,
4. My proposal allows for the President to choose his ministers and aids coherently, however said ministers require the confidence of the Parliament.
5. My proposal grants the President to appoint ambassadors to foreign states (the admins are automatic members of the Supreme Court). While my proposal does not require the advice and consent of the Parliament, said indiviuals can be removed by a recall vote with a simple majority.
6. This is in my proposal, but again, day-to-day affiars will be managed by the Minister of Defense and the Cabinet,
7. This is in my proposal
8. This is in my proposal
9. This is in my proposal
10. That is also in my proposal and my proposal clearly manages said role.

[MERIZoC]

Because of the troubling natures of the other proposals for the executive, this has been assembled as an other matter for us to discuss. This has been cleared with the convention president.

The executive powers of the Federation of Elizia are invested in the President of Elizia who is both head of state and of government for Elizia.
The President of Elizia is selected by the Senate in accordance with their own protocols and holds the post until a demonstration of no confidence in the President of Elizia by the Senate.
The President of Elizia must meet such requirements as to be a member of the Senate. The President of Elizia is not required to be a member of the Senate nor shall membership in the Senate be disqualifying from holding the office.
The President of Elizia may appoint such assistants as he may find necessary or are required by law to head the ministries of the government and advise the President of Elizia on all matters related to duties of the office.
The President of Elizia may, with the explicit consent of the Senate, appoint ambassadors to foreign states and justices to the Supreme Court of Elizia and any other office which the Senate finds should require their expressed approval to appoint. All other offices of the government may be appointed by the President of Elizia with the implicit approval of the Senate’s confidence. The President of Elizia may appoint any office requiring the explicit approval of the Senate which is vacant when the Senate is in recess and such appointments shall expire at the end of the next session of the Senate unless the Senate shall give its expressed approval.
The President of Elizia is the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Elizia.
The President of Elizia will receive and accredit ambassadors and diplomats of foreign states.
The President of Elizia may, with the explicit consent of the Senate, enter into treaties.
The President of Elizia may grant reprieves or pardons for offences against Elizia except in cases of impeachment.
The Vice President of Elizia is appointed by the President of Elizia to be the President of Elizia’s principal assistant. Among the other duties that may be delegated to the Vice President of Elizia by law or by the President of Elizia, the Vice President of Elizia assumes the powers of the President of Elizia in an acting role only at any time the President of Elizia is unable to discharge the responsibilities of the office until the President of Elizia can once more discharge the duties of the office or a new President of Elizia has been selected by the Senate.

"Selected by the senate"

Does this mean confidence, or the dumbass way we chose the interim president?

It's also worth noting that a president is almost always, if not always, elected by the people, not the legislature.

[House of Judah]

I will address these concerns anyone would have

1. Yes, the President is both the Head of State and government and that comes with power, however, my President is clearly and coherently checked in a sufficient manner. In fact, my proposal places more restrictions on the executive than that of Altantica, who places little restriction on the Council. Also note that it is the Cabinet's job to manage the day to day affairs of government with the Presidents overside,
2. I think that it should be up to the people to decide (there really isn't much difference though), my proposal allows for a simple vote of no confidence on the office of President.
3. The President should not be a member of the Senate, in my opinion separation of powers is necessary,
4. My proposal allows for the President to choose his ministers and aids coherently, however said ministers require the confidence of the Parliament.
5. My proposal grants the President to appoint ambassadors to foreign states (the admins are automatic members of the Supreme Court). While my proposal does not require the advice and consent of the Parliament, said indiviuals can be removed by a recall vote with a simple majority.

1. Due respect, but it is my belief that it is best if the role of the executive is to execute those duties and responsibilities as has been deemed appropriate by the legislature in their role as representatives of the people. This ensures that the executive is not only checked but indeed serves the people by being entirely dependent on the people's representatives and further avoids the often untenable situation of cohabitation between an executive and legislature that are mutually hostile. We have seen the dangers of such situations when we look at the government shut downs that the United States has faced during the past decade when one party controlled the executive and the other the legislature.

2. This proposal also allows for a simple motion of no confidence, but also allows the legislature to, if it shall determine a more desirable means of selecting an executive, to do so without a need for amending the constitution according to the protocols that we shall establish at this convention.

3. A separation of powers is unnecessary in that there is sufficient check on the power of the legislature in the form of constitutional restrictions and the judiciary. The role of the executive is to carry out the day to day affairs of the nation, and acting beyond this role only in times of emergency. Matters of policy should be the province only of the legislature.

4. There is either confidence in the government as a whole or there is not. The president is the chief actor for the executive which serves the legislature, and so should have the authority to appoint his cabinet as he needs to provided he has the confidence of the legislature. It is worth noting however that the legislature may, if it deems necessary, make those ministerial posts ones which require their expressed consent to appoint as the language does not forbid such a reservation.

5. This is a minor quibbling point, but since the ambassadors serve the people and their representatives in the legislature and not the President, it is only right and proper that the legislature hold authority over the appointment to the post. [And that's great and all but 1) the admins run the RP, but the judiciary is an IC body that doesn't necessarily need to be the admin team and it may enhance the RP to have not be and 2) we still need an IC way that the judiciary gets selected.]

"Selected by the senate"

Does this mean confidence, or the dumbass way we chose the interim president?

It's also worth noting that a president is almost always, if not always, elected by the people, not the legislature.

It says "Selected by the Senate in accordance with their own protocols and holds the post until a demonstration of no confidence in the President of Elizia by the Senate." If the Senate should bizarrely choose the to utilize the same system, the President would still be obliged to maintain the confidence of the Senate.

And it is indeed not always, though the use of the term President here is not necessary. Just as with the term Senate, if we should choose another term for such an office, the text can easily be amended to use that language instead. I merely selected it in place of the term Prime Minister as Prime Minister seemed inappropriate for the nature of the office I proposed.

[Nariterrr]

1. Due respect, but it is my belief that it is best if the role of the executive is to execute those duties and responsibilities as has been deemed appropriate by the legislature in their role as representatives of the people. This ensures that the executive is not only checked but indeed serves the people by being entirely dependent on the people's representatives and further avoids the often untenable situation of cohabitation between an executive and legislature that are mutually hostile. We have seen the dangers of such situations when we look at the government shut downs that the United States has faced during the past decade when one party controlled the executive and the other the legislature.

2. This proposal also allows for a simple motion of no confidence, but also allows the legislature to, if it shall determine a more desirable means of selecting an executive, to do so without a need for amending the constitution according to the protocols that we shall establish at this convention.

3. A separation of powers is unnecessary in that there is sufficient check on the power of the legislature in the form of constitutional restrictions and the judiciary. The role of the executive is to carry out the day to day affairs of the nation, and acting beyond this role only in times of emergency. Matters of policy should be the province only of the legislature.

4. There is either confidence in the government as a whole or there is not. The president is the chief actor for the executive which serves the legislature, and so should have the authority to appoint his cabinet as he needs to provided he has the confidence of the legislature. It is worth noting however that the legislature may, if it deems necessary, make those ministerial posts ones which require their expressed consent to appoint as the language does not forbid such a reservation.

5. This is a minor quibbling point, but since the ambassadors serve the people and their representatives in the legislature and not the President, it is only right and proper that the legislature hold authority over the appointment to the post. [And that's great and all but 1) the admins run the RP, but the judiciary is an IC body that doesn't necessarily need to be the admin team and it may enhance the RP to have not be and 2) we still need an IC way that the judiciary gets selected.]

1. I agree with you on this but I don't see how my proposal is contradictory to your statement.

2. Nitpicking on how to election by Parliament vs. General Election is really dumb in an OOC perspective because you will have the same people in the name rules and in the same jobs.

3. Checks and balances and separation of powers is necessary in a nation with a history of strongmen leaders. If we only place restrictions on the legislator, it gives the government de jure authority to do as it pleases. Your argument would hold up in the event of a Parliamentary system, however thus far no such system has been introduced.

4. Specific motions of no confidence on a government Minister is to remove said minister without removing the whole government. This is to encourage non-partisan growth.

5. You make a point there, but I really see no reason to put making ambassadors in the hands of the Parliament, it is more effecient to allow the President to appoint them with oversight and regulation by the Parliament.

[House of Judah]

1. You are proposing a presidential system. I am proposing a parliamentary system. The two are quite different.

2. Actually, I'm just saying that the bare bones of the how we select the executive should be by the parliament. The specifics should be handled by an act of the legislature.

3. This is a parliamentary system. Just because there is a singular head of state and government called the president does not mean that it is not parliamentary. It simply doesn't rely on an external officer to appoint the head of government but instead allows the parliament to do it directly and establish its own protocols for doing so.

4. A government has to be able to work together. They are a team. If the team cannot function, the team changes itself to be able to operate or the team is removed.

5. It's not about efficiency, it is about doing things right.

[Nariterrr]

1. You are proposing a presidential system. I am proposing a parliamentary system. The two are quite different.

2. Actually, I'm just saying that the bare bones of the how we select the executive should be by the parliament. The specifics should be handled by an act of the legislature.

3. This is a parliamentary system. Just because there is a singular head of state and government called the president does not mean that it is not parliamentary. It simply doesn't rely on an external officer to appoint the head of government but instead allows the parliament to do it directly and establish its own protocols for doing so.

4. A government has to be able to work together. They are a team. If the team cannot function, the team changes itself to be able to operate or the team is removed.

5. It's not about efficiency, it is about doing things right.

I am not aware of any Parliamentary proposal being submitted.

3) But if one minister is inadequate, should the whole government fall?

[House of Judah]

I am not aware of any Parliamentary proposal being submitted.

3) But if one minister is inadequate, should the whole government fall?

Mine is a parliamentary system.