by Progressive Americans » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:52 am
by Eternal Yerushalayim » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:54 am
by Tagmatium » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:58 am
Eternal Yerushalayim wrote:The Middle East would be better if the Byzantine Empire never fell. Down with the Sultans, Sheiks and Sickos!
North Calaveras wrote:Tagmatium, it was never about pie...
by Progressive Americans » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:00 am
Eternal Yerushalayim wrote:The Middle East would be better if the Byzantine Empire never fell. Down with the Sultans, Sheiks and Sickos!
by Nanatsu no Tsuki » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:04 am
Slava Ukraini
Also: THERNSY!!
Your story isn't over;֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Supposedly heartless, & a d*ck.||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGsRIP: Dyakovo & Ashmoria
by Progressive Americans » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:07 am
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:Does speculating about this serve any purpose? Who knows. Maybe it would've been best that it never fell. Maybe it was best that it did.
by Costa Fiero » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:11 am
by Progressive Americans » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:15 am
Costa Fiero wrote:The Byzantines were Christians and essentially Catholics. Where else did you think the religion came from? Byzantium was the former East Roman Empire.
by Nanatsu no Tsuki » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:15 am
Costa Fiero wrote:The Byzantines were Christians and essentially Catholics. Where else did you think the religion came from? Byzantium was the former East Roman Empire.
Slava Ukraini
Also: THERNSY!!
Your story isn't over;֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Supposedly heartless, & a d*ck.||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGsRIP: Dyakovo & Ashmoria
by Mongolian Khanate » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:17 am
Progressive Americans wrote:Costa Fiero wrote:The Byzantines were Christians and essentially Catholics. Where else did you think the religion came from? Byzantium was the former East Roman Empire.
I know that. There was still tension between the Papacy in Rome and the Orthodox at that time. Some believe the Byzantine Empire (r at that time more like the city) was allowed to fall in many ways because of religion and influence of the Pope.
by The Archregimancy » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:18 am
Progressive Americans wrote:If the Ottoman Empire never fell keeping their Middle East territories excepting European territories, then ideally we would not see much of the strife we see now in the Middle East. The monarchy would have become fairly European or secularized though it could have become the Ottoman Republic at a later point.
Would the Middle East be better if the Ottoman Empire never fell?
by The Archregimancy » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:20 am
Costa Fiero wrote:
The Byzantines were Christians and essentially Catholics.
by Mongolian Khanate » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:21 am
The Archregimancy wrote:The idea that the continued existence of the Ottoman Empire would have magically brought peace to the Middle East is just fatuous; no doubt some of the problems would have been different (no Israel, for example), but by the 19th century the Empire was in almost certainly terminal decline - which is why the Turks themselves eventually ended it; by founding a republic, no less - and riddled with religious and ethnic conflict in its non-European lands.
by Progressive Americans » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:22 am
The Archregimancy wrote:Progressive Americans wrote:If the Ottoman Empire never fell keeping their Middle East territories excepting European territories, then ideally we would not see much of the strife we see now in the Middle East. The monarchy would have become fairly European or secularized though it could have become the Ottoman Republic at a later point.
Would the Middle East be better if the Ottoman Empire never fell?
Among the great list of fundamentally unsound and historically illiterate suggestions I've read on NSG, this one might well take the biscuit.
You seem to be assuming some form of monolithic unchanging Ottoman Imperial state capable of exerting its power across the entirety of its non-European domains, and which suddenly 'fell' while capable of doing so.
In fact, the Ottoman Empire was in slow irrevocable decline from the late 17th century, and never recovered from the twin blow of the Second Siege of Vienna and Battle of Zenta. At what point are we supposed to arrest the 'fall' of the Empire? Before Muhammed Ali Pasha wrests effective control of Egypt away from Constantinople in 1805? Before the advance of ethnic nationalism leads to frequent Arab revolts against Turkish Ottoman rule? Before the Armenian genocide? And does it not occur to you that the gradual loss of the European territories was an integral part of Ottoman decline? Why should we support the independence of Greeks and Bulgarians, but not that of Arabs? Because the latter are, like the Turks, Muslims? So you think shared religion trumps different ethnicity - but if so, where does this leave those parts of the Asian Ottoman Empire that had Christian majorities, like Armenia, Lebanon, and Jerusalem?
The idea that the continued existence of the Ottoman Empire would have magically brought peace to the Middle East is just fatuous; no doubt some of the problems would have been different (no Israel, for example), but by the 19th century the Empire was in almost certainly terminal decline - which is why the Turks themselves eventually ended it; by founding a republic, no less - and riddled with religious and ethnic conflict in its non-European lands.
by Red Zone 1 » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:22 am
by Nanatsu no Tsuki » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:22 am
Slava Ukraini
Also: THERNSY!!
Your story isn't over;֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Supposedly heartless, & a d*ck.||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGsRIP: Dyakovo & Ashmoria
by Mongolian Khanate » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:26 am
Progressive Americans wrote:The Archregimancy wrote:
Among the great list of fundamentally unsound and historically illiterate suggestions I've read on NSG, this one might well take the biscuit.
You seem to be assuming some form of monolithic unchanging Ottoman Imperial state capable of exerting its power across the entirety of its non-European domains, and which suddenly 'fell' while capable of doing so.
In fact, the Ottoman Empire was in slow irrevocable decline from the late 17th century, and never recovered from the twin blow of the Second Siege of Vienna and Battle of Zenta. At what point are we supposed to arrest the 'fall' of the Empire? Before Muhammed Ali Pasha wrests effective control of Egypt away from Constantinople in 1805? Before the advance of ethnic nationalism leads to frequent Arab revolts against Turkish Ottoman rule? Before the Armenian genocide? And does it not occur to you that the gradual loss of the European territories was an integral part of Ottoman decline? Why should we support the independence of Greeks and Bulgarians, but not that of Arabs? Because the latter are, like the Turks, Muslims? So you think shared religion trumps different ethnicity - but if so, where does this leave those parts of the Asian Ottoman Empire that had Christian majorities, like Armenia, Lebanon, and Jerusalem?
The idea that the continued existence of the Ottoman Empire would have magically brought peace to the Middle East is just fatuous; no doubt some of the problems would have been different (no Israel, for example), but by the 19th century the Empire was in almost certainly terminal decline - which is why the Turks themselves eventually ended it; by founding a republic, no less - and riddled with religious and ethnic conflict in its non-European lands.
No I do not believe that religion trumps ethnicity, and am aware of the ethnic differences.
I am not going to pin an exact time, but presumably even as Arab nationalism was on the rise. Preferably when the Ottoman Empire appeared like it could survive, minus the European territories.
It is not a historically illiterate suggestion, but perhaps a suspension of what in historical reality happened. Obviously by 1923 the Ottoman Empire was already in great decline.
by Progressive Americans » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:28 am
by St George of England » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:31 am
Progressive Americans wrote:If the Ottoman Empire never fell keeping their Middle East territories excepting European territories, then ideally we would not see much of the strife we see now in the Middle East. The monarchy would have become fairly European or secularized though it could have become the Ottoman Republic at a later point.
Would the Middle East be better if the Ottoman Empire never fell?
by Hegstoria » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:36 am
by Progressive Americans » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:39 am
Hegstoria wrote:Progressive Americans wrote:
Then we would probably have seen a massive war between Byzantine Empire and Catholic nations at some point, though perhaps not.
Err... The Fourth Crusade?
by Hegstoria » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:41 am
Progressive Americans wrote:Hegstoria wrote:Err... The Fourth Crusade?
Yep, but even if it survived through the medieval ages into the renaissance.
by Yoneyistan » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:43 am
by Kalatimania » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:43 am
by Progressive Americans » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:44 am
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