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Most dangerous game: Right-Libertarian version

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Is the company described below okay according to your ethics?

Yes.
25
47%
No.
28
53%
 
Total votes : 53

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Natapoc
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Most dangerous game: Right-Libertarian version

Postby Natapoc » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:23 pm

The following is not intended to mock any particular belief system, it's intended to analyse the limitations (if any) of contracts in a theoretical society.

Would the following business model be acceptable in the future libertarian, objectivist, or "anarcho"-capitalist society:

Imagine a business which allowed sportsmen to hunt people who have agreed to have the job of being "the hunted"

The hunter is given hunting rifle with 1 bullet, a horse, and a pack of bloodhounds.

5 employees of the ranch have signed papers agreeing to be "the hunted", they are to be dropped off naked in the middle of the property which is 40 miles in diameter, unable to escape with a 4 hour head start on the hunter who paid for this opportunity.

Included in employment contract signed by the employee is the usual legal disclaimer about waving all rights to sue the ranch or the sportsman for loss of life or limb or physical or mental impairment or any other damages that may result from the job they are about to preform.

The employees were told after their interview that 1 of them will die (assuming the hunt is successful, which, like most canned hunts, it nearly always is) and the rest will be paid but of course they focus on the salary that the 4 survivors will get.

For the sportsmen the game is to outsmart the employees and bag one of them, If he manages to kill an employee he may do whatever he likes with the body including collect trophies but he must use one bullet to make his kill.

Okay now questions: Is this an acceptable type of business? If not why not?
Is it okay for an employee to sign away basic rights to the employer like this as a condition of employment?

Would it make a difference if the sportsman was given a machine gun and helicopter and had a 100% chance of killing all of the 5 employees instead of 1?

Would your opinion change if the hunter was not allowed to take trophies?

If the employment chance had been advertised as "ranch hand" or "Adrenalin junkies wanted!" in the paper and the part about agreeing to be selected for this game was in the "fine print" of the employment contract would it make a difference? If so why?

This question is to see if it's the actual words on the contract that matter or what was emphasized that matters.

Lets say one of the employees has second thoughts and no longer wants to be hunted but it's after the game already started. Is it still okay to hunt him because he signed the contract?

Now to turn the tables, one of the hunted humans hides in a tree with a large sharpened stick and as the hunter nears hurls the stick into the neck of the hunter killing the hunter.

The employee claims self defense. Is this a valid claim by the employee?

What, if any, damages is the employee liable for?

Would it make a difference if the employees where children? If so why and what ages?

Would it make a difference if they were indentured servants?

This post is inspired by this article http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/story?id=4659641&page=1
Last edited by Natapoc on Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:00 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:31 pm

Is this some attempt to make us feel sorry for animals and stuff?

I just want to ask up front.
Last edited by Galloism on Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mike the Progressive
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Postby Mike the Progressive » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:32 pm

*Shoots a pitbull and cuts off its head*

Say what?

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Natapoc
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Postby Natapoc » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:32 pm

Galloism wrote:Is this some attempt to make us feel sorry for animals and stuff?


No. Why is it making you feel sorry for animals?

Animals never signed a contract as employees of a ranch that exists to satisfy a particular demographic of hunters using contract law and free market libertarian justifications.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:34 pm

Natapoc wrote:
Galloism wrote:Is this some attempt to make us feel sorry for animals and stuff?


No.


Ok. Carry on.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Natapoc
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Postby Natapoc » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:34 pm

Mike the Progressive wrote:*Shoots a pitbull and cuts off its head*

Say what?


Um what does this have to do with the topic? Care to read the OP before making assumptions? I'm talking about the limitations of contracts in a right-libertarian society.
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Ex-Brogavia
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Postby Ex-Brogavia » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:35 pm

Natapoc wrote:Imagine a business which allowed sportsmen to hunt people who have agreed to have the job of being "the hunted"

The hunter is given hunting rifle with 1 bullet, a horse, and a pack of bloodhounds.

5 employees of the ranch have signed papers agreeing to be "the hunted", they are to be dropped off naked in the middle of the property which is 40 miles in diameter, unable to escape with a 4 hour head start on the hunter who paid for this opportunity.


Roughly 1250 square miles to hide in. The guy only has one bullet, a horse, and a pack of bloodhounds? Seems fair to me. I would give myself good odds.

Included in employment contract signed by the employee is the usual legal disclaimer about waving all rights to sue the ranch or the sportsman for loss of life or limb or physical or mental impairment or any other damages that may result from the job they are about to preform.

The employees were told after their interview that 1 of them will die (assuming the hunt is successful, which, like most canned hunts, it nearly always is) and the rest will be paid but of course they focus on the salary that the 4 survivors will get.

For the sportsmen the game is to outsmart the employees and bag one of them, If he manages to kill an employee he may do whatever he likes with the body including collect trophies but he must use one bullet to make his kill.


Always read the fine print when it comes to disclaimers and waivers, anyone who doesn't deserves what fate the fine print sentanced them to. And on 1250 sqaure miles, I wouldn't say its a canned hunt.
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Mike the Progressive
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Postby Mike the Progressive » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:36 pm

Natapoc wrote:
Mike the Progressive wrote:*Shoots a pitbull and cuts off its head*

Say what?


Um what does this have to do with the topic? Care to read the OP before making assumptions? I'm talking about the limitations of contracts in a right-libertarian society.


I did.

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Lackadaisical2
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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:38 pm

Seems totally fine to me, but anyone in their right mind would choose slavery first, unless the pay was really good.

Also, fuck trophies, I'd eat them fuckers.
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Natapoc
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Postby Natapoc » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:39 pm

Ex-Brogavia wrote:(snip)


Would it make any difference to you if the area of the property was significantly smaller? Would any of the other questions in the OP (such as children or indentured servants or the self defense case) provide any exceptions?
Last edited by Natapoc on Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Barringtonia
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Postby Barringtonia » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:39 pm

Ex-Brogavia wrote:Roughly 1250 square miles to hide in. The guy only has one bullet, a horse, and a pack of bloodhounds? Seems fair to me. I would give myself good odds.

...

Always read the fine print when it comes to disclaimers and waivers, anyone who doesn't deserves what fate the fine print sentanced them to. And on 1250 sqaure miles, I wouldn't say its a canned hunt.


To be honest, the circumstances described are somewhat misleading and irrelevant to the point, which is the contractual right to kill given no regulations as such.

If someone wanted to be contracted to stand against a wall so someone could fulfill his fantasy of being part of a firing squad it would be the same. The odds of living don't need to come into it.
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Mongolian Khanate
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Postby Mongolian Khanate » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:39 pm

Fine with me
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Natapoc
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Postby Natapoc » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:41 pm

Mongolian Khanate wrote:Fine with me

Would it make a difference if the employees where children? If so why and what ages?
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Ex-Brogavia
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Postby Ex-Brogavia » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:45 pm

Natapoc wrote:
Ex-Brogavia wrote:(snip)


Would it make any difference to you if the area of the property was significantly smaller? Would any of the other questions in the OP (such as children or indentured servants or the self defense case) provide any exceptions?


Children are unable to sign legal contracts, same with indentured servants. Killing them would be murder regardless. If our good friend Nixon and I had a contract that said, if the Chicago Cubs sweep the world series next year, I get to kill him. If he agrees to such a contract, and the Cubs sweep the World Series, then yes, I would be morally able to kill him.
Last edited by Ex-Brogavia on Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"No man’s life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." –Mark Twain

"Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." -P.J. O’Rourke

"We don’t have a trillion-dollar debt because we haven’t taxed enough; we have a trillion-dollar debt because we spend too much." -President Ronald Reagan


Roll, roll, roll a joint, twisted at the end
Spark it up and get fucked up
then pass it to a friend

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Natapoc
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Postby Natapoc » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:46 pm

Lackadaisical2 wrote:Seems totally fine to me, but anyone in their right mind would choose slavery first, unless the pay was really good.

Also, fuck trophies, I'd eat them fuckers.


Would you answer differently for any of the questions asked? What about the "self defense" case?

To quote myself:"Now to turn the tables, one of the hunted humans hides in a tree with a large sharpened stick and as the hunter nears hurls the stick into the neck of the hunter killing the hunter.

The employee claims self defense. Is this a valid claim by the employee? "
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Ex-Brogavia
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Postby Ex-Brogavia » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:47 pm

Natapoc wrote:
Lackadaisical2 wrote:Seems totally fine to me, but anyone in their right mind would choose slavery first, unless the pay was really good.

Also, fuck trophies, I'd eat them fuckers.


Would you answer differently for any of the questions asked? What about the "self defense" case?

To quote myself:"Now to turn the tables, one of the hunted humans hides in a tree with a large sharpened stick and as the hunter nears hurls the stick into the neck of the hunter killing the hunter.

The employee claims self defense. Is this a valid claim by the employee? "


Yes. The hunter would also have to sign some sort of contract stating that the prey has the right to defend itself.
"No man’s life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." –Mark Twain

"Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." -P.J. O’Rourke

"We don’t have a trillion-dollar debt because we haven’t taxed enough; we have a trillion-dollar debt because we spend too much." -President Ronald Reagan


Roll, roll, roll a joint, twisted at the end
Spark it up and get fucked up
then pass it to a friend

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Postby The Parkus Empire » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:47 pm

Ex-Brogavia wrote:
Natapoc wrote:
Would it make any difference to you if the area of the property was significantly smaller? Would any of the other questions in the OP (such as children or indentured servants or the self defense case) provide any exceptions?


Children are unable to sign legal contracts, same with indentured servants. Killing them would be murder regardless. If our good friend Nixon and I had a contract that said, if the Chicago Cubs sweep the world series next year, I get to kill him. If he agrees to such a contract, and the Cubs sweep the World Series, then yes, I would be morally able to kill him.

Morally? No. Legally, maybe, if the laws where changed.
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Barringtonia
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Postby Barringtonia » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:48 pm

Natapoc wrote:
Lackadaisical2 wrote:Seems totally fine to me, but anyone in their right mind would choose slavery first, unless the pay was really good.

Also, fuck trophies, I'd eat them fuckers.


Would you answer differently for any of the questions asked? What about the "self defense" case?

To quote myself:"Now to turn the tables, one of the hunted humans hides in a tree with a large sharpened stick and as the hunter nears hurls the stick into the neck of the hunter killing the hunter.

The employee claims self defense. Is this a valid claim by the employee? "


Self-defense according to what, unless this right is stipulated in the contract then no, he doesn't have that right to claim.
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Natapoc
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Postby Natapoc » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:49 pm

Ex-Brogavia wrote:
Natapoc wrote:
Would you answer differently for any of the questions asked? What about the "self defense" case?

To quote myself:"Now to turn the tables, one of the hunted humans hides in a tree with a large sharpened stick and as the hunter nears hurls the stick into the neck of the hunter killing the hunter.

The employee claims self defense. Is this a valid claim by the employee? "


Yes. The hunter would also have to sign some sort of contract stating that the prey has the right to defend itself.


Right but in this version of events the hunter did not sign any such document saying he agreed to the right of the prey to defend itself. Would it still be okay?
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Natapoc
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Postby Natapoc » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:50 pm

Ex-Brogavia wrote:
Natapoc wrote:
Would it make any difference to you if the area of the property was significantly smaller? Would any of the other questions in the OP (such as children or indentured servants or the self defense case) provide any exceptions?


Children are unable to sign legal contracts, same with indentured servants. Killing them would be murder regardless. If our good friend Nixon and I had a contract that said, if the Chicago Cubs sweep the world series next year, I get to kill him. If he agrees to such a contract, and the Cubs sweep the World Series, then yes, I would be morally able to kill him.


You must be against all child labor then. Not all right-libertarians are.
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Lackadaisical2
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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:51 pm

Natapoc wrote:
Lackadaisical2 wrote:Seems totally fine to me, but anyone in their right mind would choose slavery first, unless the pay was really good.

Also, fuck trophies, I'd eat them fuckers.


Would you answer differently for any of the questions asked? What about the "self defense" case?

To quote myself:"Now to turn the tables, one of the hunted humans hides in a tree with a large sharpened stick and as the hunter nears hurls the stick into the neck of the hunter killing the hunter.

The employee claims self defense. Is this a valid claim by the employee? "

Depends entirely on the contract, does the employee waive his right to self defense in the contract?
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Natapoc
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Postby Natapoc » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:51 pm

Barringtonia wrote:
Natapoc wrote:
Would you answer differently for any of the questions asked? What about the "self defense" case?

To quote myself:"Now to turn the tables, one of the hunted humans hides in a tree with a large sharpened stick and as the hunter nears hurls the stick into the neck of the hunter killing the hunter.

The employee claims self defense. Is this a valid claim by the employee? "


Self-defense according to what, unless this right is stipulated in the contract then no, he doesn't have that right to claim.


Really? So the right to self defense then is not a fundamental right unless stipulated in a contract? Or are you saying the employee waved his right to self defense by agreeing to be hunted as part of employment?
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Ex-Brogavia
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Postby Ex-Brogavia » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:51 pm

Natapoc wrote:
Ex-Brogavia wrote:
Yes. The hunter would also have to sign some sort of contract stating that the prey has the right to defend itself.


Right but in this version of events the hunter did not sign any such document saying he agreed to the right of the prey to defend itself. Would it still be okay?


Then only an idiot would sign the prey contract, and thus him getting hunted would be a benefit to the gene pool.
"No man’s life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." –Mark Twain

"Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." -P.J. O’Rourke

"We don’t have a trillion-dollar debt because we haven’t taxed enough; we have a trillion-dollar debt because we spend too much." -President Ronald Reagan


Roll, roll, roll a joint, twisted at the end
Spark it up and get fucked up
then pass it to a friend

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Natapoc
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Postby Natapoc » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:52 pm

Lackadaisical2 wrote:
Natapoc wrote:
Would you answer differently for any of the questions asked? What about the "self defense" case?

To quote myself:"Now to turn the tables, one of the hunted humans hides in a tree with a large sharpened stick and as the hunter nears hurls the stick into the neck of the hunter killing the hunter.

The employee claims self defense. Is this a valid claim by the employee? "

Depends entirely on the contract, does the employee waive his right to self defense in the contract?


Imagine if he did not. Who if anyone would be liable.
Imagine if he did. Who if anyone would be liable?

Can you really wave rights like the right to self defense?
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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:52 pm

Natapoc wrote:
Ex-Brogavia wrote:
Children are unable to sign legal contracts, same with indentured servants. Killing them would be murder regardless. If our good friend Nixon and I had a contract that said, if the Chicago Cubs sweep the world series next year, I get to kill him. If he agrees to such a contract, and the Cubs sweep the World Series, then yes, I would be morally able to kill him.


You must be against all child labor then. Not all right-libertarians are.

I agree with Brog here (condolences for losing your last nick), minors can't enter into binding contracts. They should be in school.
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