Congresswoman Gabby Giffords Shot in Head

[South Norwega]

Well, obviously, every American should be required by law to carry a concealed handgun without a permit so this kind of terrible thing won't happen again.

Or you can just say you cant carry a weapon on public property. Or if you want to you have to get a license.

How is that really enforceable?

Are we going to have metal detectors everywhere?

This is why I think regulating sales is better than regulating use. That way you're likely to be able to stop silly people getting guns at the point of sale. Of course, it won't stop gun crime, but it could well lessen it. Registration, licensing, etcetera. GPS transponders would be cool.

[Mercator Terra]

I still believe your wrong because a welfare state is one with and extensive and elaborate welfare system. The welfare system in Switzerland is really small. Either or im against SS.

Well, yes, that's one definition. It happens to be the definition used by those opposed to the laissez-faire approach. Was I incorrect in assuming you understood the economic position you say you espouse?

A welfare state is a concept of government where the state plays the primary role in the protection and promotion of the economic and social well-being of its citizens. It is based on the principles of equality of opportunity, equitable distribution of wealth, and public responsibility for those unable to avail themselves of the minimal provisions for a good life. The general term may cover a variety of forms of economic and social organization.

Doesn't sound like Switzerland but they do have some aspects of this. Not enough in my belief to be called a welfare state.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/639266/welfare-state

[Mercator Terra]

Or you can just say you cant carry a weapon on public property. Or if you want to you have to get a license.

How is that really enforceable?

Are we going to have metal detectors everywhere?

This is why I think regulating sales is better than regulating use. That way you're likely to be able to stop silly people getting guns at the point of sale. Of course, it won't stop gun crime, but it could well lessen it. Registration, licensing, etcetera. GPS transponders would be cool.

How is regulating sales enforceable? Weed is illegal. You cant buy it from any store (except from those stores in states were medical marijuana is legal) yet you can still obtain it. If you regulate the sale of guns to a high extent they same will happen. Crime organisations will pop up and start selling them on the black market. This is the same logic used by the supporters of the prohibition. All the prohibition did was increase crime.

[South Norwega]

How is that really enforceable?

Are we going to have metal detectors everywhere?

This is why I think regulating sales is better than regulating use. That way you're likely to be able to stop silly people getting guns at the point of sale. Of course, it won't stop gun crime, but it could well lessen it. Registration, licensing, etcetera. GPS transponders would be cool.

How is regulating sales enforceable? Weed is illegal. You cant buy it from any store (except from those stores in states were medical marijuana is legal) yet you can still obtain it. If you regulate the sale of guns to a high extent they same will happen. Crime organisations will pop up and start selling them on the black market. This is the same logic used by the supporters of the prohibition. All the prohibition did was increase crime.

Prohibition was prohibition. Drugs are prohibited. I am talking about regulation, not prohibition. There's a fundamental difference.

Australia banned several types of guns and restricted others in 1996 after the largest civilian massacre by an individual anywhere. There seems to be practically no black market in guns.

[Grave_n_idle]

How is that really enforceable?

Are we going to have metal detectors everywhere?

This is why I think regulating sales is better than regulating use. That way you're likely to be able to stop silly people getting guns at the point of sale. Of course, it won't stop gun crime, but it could well lessen it. Registration, licensing, etcetera. GPS transponders would be cool.

How is regulating sales enforceable? Weed is illegal. You cant buy it from any store (except from those stores in states were medical marijuana is legal) yet you can still obtain it. If you regulate the sale of guns to a high extent they same will happen. Crime organisations will pop up and start selling them on the black market. This is the same logic used by the supporters of the prohibition. All the prohibition did was increase crime.

Deliberately dishonest attempt to conflate the 'regulation' Norwega talked about with 'prohibition'?

[Coccygia]

Well, obviously, every American should be required by law to carry a concealed handgun without a permit so this kind of terrible thing won't happen again.

Or you can just say you cant carry a weapon on public property. Or if you want to you have to get a license.

Parody? You can bet that this is indeed what the gun lovers will say, if they haven't already. Everything's better with guns!

[South Norwega]

Or you can just say you cant carry a weapon on public property. Or if you want to you have to get a license.

Parody? You can bet that this is indeed what the gun lovers will say, if they haven't already. Everything's better with guns!

Soon we'll have fast food store people asking 'do you want guns with that'?

And all will be right in the world at last.

[Mercator Terra]

How is regulating sales enforceable? Weed is illegal. You cant buy it from any store (except from those stores in states were medical marijuana is legal) yet you can still obtain it. If you regulate the sale of guns to a high extent they same will happen. Crime organisations will pop up and start selling them on the black market. This is the same logic used by the supporters of the prohibition. All the prohibition did was increase crime.

Deliberately dishonest attempt to conflate the 'regulation' Norwega talked about with 'prohibition'?

Not at all im just comparing them because it uses the same logic that regulation of something will decrease the use of it.

[Gauthier]

lol Krugman. Is this the same Kormrade Krugman asking for a housing bubble to cover up the Nasdaq bubble? Yeah Im going take him seriously. Just like Bush isnt getting anything out of the Iraq War... Yup...

What a well-argued and well-supported rebuttal that clearly addressed the points being made rather than the person making them! Good job!

Everyone knows Ad Hominem criticisms are the most erudite and precise.

[Gauthier]

On a personal note, the Arizona shooting took place two blocks from the home of my brother-in-law and his wife. They are safe, but they and their neighbors know some of the people who were killed and wounded.

---

I'd like to point out Rachel Maddow's superb response to this affair. I know that Maddow is widely disliked among conservatives, but it is noteworthy that she did not attempt to tie this incident to conservative militancy, which she has documented in past shows. Instead, she focused on another issue: The recurring nature of this sort of thing in America. Her drumbeat recital of the details of 15 previous incidents of this nature over the last 22 years (the span of Jerod Lee Laughner's lifetime) hammered that point home powerfully. but then - rather than segueing to an immediate call for gun control (the usual liberal response), she simply asked what the nation could do - if anything - to prevent such massacres in the future.

I would agree with Ms. Maddow: This is a conversation that we need to have, and we really need to make it an adult conversation rather than letting it descend into the usual political argument over gun control, health care, culture, video games, religion, or whatever.

Too bad most eyes and ears on NSG go blind and deaf at "Rachel Maddow".

[Gauthier]

How is regulating sales enforceable? Weed is illegal. You cant buy it from any store (except from those stores in states were medical marijuana is legal) yet you can still obtain it. If you regulate the sale of guns to a high extent they same will happen. Crime organisations will pop up and start selling them on the black market. This is the same logic used by the supporters of the prohibition. All the prohibition did was increase crime.

Deliberately dishonest attempt to conflate the 'regulation' Norwega talked about with 'prohibition'?

I said it about him once, and I'll say it again. The point about regulation of guns went through his head faster than the bullet went through Gabby Giffords'.

[Grave_n_idle]

Deliberately dishonest attempt to conflate the 'regulation' Norwega talked about with 'prohibition'?

Not at all im just comparing them because it uses the same logic that regulation of something will decrease the use of it.

Regulation =/= prohibition, agreed?

[Mercator Terra]

Deliberately dishonest attempt to conflate the 'regulation' Norwega talked about with 'prohibition'?

I said it about him once, and I'll say it again. The point about regulation of guns went through his head faster than the bullet went through Gabby Giffords'.

I just argued how regulation is ineffective. It will just reappear is a black market (like alcohol during the Prohibition) and increase crime (like during the Prohibition).

[Gauthier]

I said it about him once, and I'll say it again. The point about regulation of guns went through his head faster than the bullet went through Gabby Giffords'.

I just argued how regulation is ineffective. It will just reappear is a black market (like alcohol during the Prohibition) and increase crime (like during the Prohibition).

Zip! There it goes again. Regulation is not about preventing someone who shouldn't be armed from getting a gun. It's about making sure they can't just get it at the local gun store or Wal Mart despite having mental stability issues just because it was never officially reported. You argument boils down to "They'll get a gun one way or another, so why try to stop them from getting one so easily?"

[South Norwega]

I said it about him once, and I'll say it again. The point about regulation of guns went through his head faster than the bullet went through Gabby Giffords'.

I just argued how regulation is ineffective. It will just reappear is a black market (like alcohol during the Prohibition) and increase crime (like during the Prohibition).

But it's not like during the prohibition. The sale of alcohol is regulated now. It's been regulated since prohibition.

I don't see how reducing the amount of guns can increase the amount of crime. There'd also be flow on benefits for countries like Mexico, currently involved in a drug war where 80% of non government weapons are from the US, the majority of which were acquired legally.

Some people will be dissuaded from getting a gun if it's more difficult to acquire. Some of these may have used them improperly.

[Mercator Terra]

I just argued how regulation is ineffective. It will just reappear is a black market (like alcohol during the Prohibition) and increase crime (like during the Prohibition).

But it's not like during the prohibition. The sale of alcohol is regulated now. It's been regulated since prohibition.

I don't see how reducing the amount of guns can increase the amount of crime. There'd also be flow on benefits for countries like Mexico, currently involved in a drug war where 80% of non government weapons are from the US, the majority of which were acquired legally.

Some people will be dissuaded from getting a gun if it's more difficult to acquire. Some of these may have used them improperly.

But if someone wants to murder someone with a gun they'll still try and get one. They wont just go "oh the law wont let me get a gun because they say I have a mental illness I guess I'll go home now".

[Gauthier]

But it's not like during the prohibition. The sale of alcohol is regulated now. It's been regulated since prohibition.

I don't see how reducing the amount of guns can increase the amount of crime. There'd also be flow on benefits for countries like Mexico, currently involved in a drug war where 80% of non government weapons are from the US, the majority of which were acquired legally.

Some people will be dissuaded from getting a gun if it's more difficult to acquire. Some of these may have used them improperly.

But if someone wants to murder someone with a gun they'll still try and get one. They wont just go "owe the law wont let me get a gun because they say I have a mental illness I guess I'll go home now".

Translation: "They'll get a gun by any means if they want one bad enough, so let's just just give it to them!"

And people talk shit about Neville Chamberlain being an appeaser?

[Mercator Terra]

But if someone wants to murder someone with a gun they'll still try and get one. They wont just go "owe the law wont let me get a gun because they say I have a mental illness I guess I'll go home now".

Translation: "They'll get a gun by any means if they want one bad enough, so let's just just give it to them!"

And people talk shit about Neville Chamberlain being an appeaser?

Or you can let those who want a gun be able to protect themselves from those who are going to get one anyway.

[United Dependencies]

But if someone wants to murder someone with a gun they'll still try and get one. They wont just go "oh the law wont let me get a gun because they say I have a mental illness I guess I'll go home now".

People are going to murder so why even bother passing laws against it right?

[United Dependencies]

Translation: "They'll get a gun by any means if they want one bad enough, so let's just just give it to them!"

And people talk shit about Neville Chamberlain being an appeaser?

Or you can let those who want a gun be able to protect themselves from those who are going to get one anyway.

How do regulations on dangerous person's buying guns keep people who just want to protect themselves from buying guns?

[Norstal]

Translation: "They'll get a gun by any means if they want one bad enough, so let's just just give it to them!"

And people talk shit about Neville Chamberlain being an appeaser?

Or you can let those who want a gun be able to protect themselves from those who are going to get one anyway.

You want felons to acquire guns with no restrictions whatsoever?

How disturbing.

[Mercator Terra]

But if someone wants to murder someone with a gun they'll still try and get one. They wont just go "oh the law wont let me get a gun because they say I have a mental illness I guess I'll go home now".

People are going to murder so why even bother passing laws against it right?

Or regulate were people can carry them (which is possible) instead of regulating the process of getting them because like I said if someone wants to murder someone with a gun their going to get a gun. Also if you regulate the ability to get a gun then you are possibly putting people in harms way being that they cannot defend against a intruder/robber/mugger/etc with a gun

[Mercator Terra]

Or you can let those who want a gun be able to protect themselves from those who are going to get one anyway.

You want felons to acquire guns with no restrictions whatsoever?

How disturbing.

Did I say that?

You want all dogs to be given over to Chinese restaurants and turned into chop suey. How disturbing...

[Mercator Terra]

Or you can let those who want a gun be able to protect themselves from those who are going to get one anyway.

How do regulations on dangerous person's buying guns keep people who just want to protect themselves from buying guns?

Who decides on if someone is dangerous? How do you decide that?

[United Dependencies]

People are going to murder so why even bother passing laws against it right?

Or regulate were people can carry them (which is possible) instead of regulating the process of getting them because like I said if someone wants to murder someone with a gun their going to get a gun. Also if you regulate the ability to get a gun then you are possibly putting people in harms way being that they cannot defend against a intruder/robber/mugger/etc with a gun

How is regulation putting someone in harm's way?