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by Rogernomics » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:21 pm
by The Merchant Republics » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:23 pm
Quailtopia wrote:The Merchant Republics wrote:The problem of course with that is that when public competes with private you will find near without fail out competes and betters the government service, which of course leads to cries that the competition is "unfair" and granting privilege only to the rich, as it did when government went up against private healthcare (this would be in Canada) and most famously the mail service.
I'm not entirely sure what this says, but I'd like to point out that the communal farms implemented by Stalin to replace the capitalist ones outperformed their counterparts.
by Trotskylvania » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:52 pm
The Merchant Republics wrote:Quailtopia wrote:
I'm not entirely sure what this says, but I'd like to point out that the communal farms implemented by Stalin to replace the capitalist ones outperformed their counterparts.
I'd like to see a source for this, but in the mean time, I'll take your point for granted in order to point out that, whether or not they outperformed the soviet farms were certainly not based on any real "communist" ideal, it was tantamount to slave labour, workers were forced onto soviets and had their food often violently seized from them.
I'm sure if you looked, slave labour was probably capable of out-performing some free producing farms, this certainly does not morally justify slavery. However, I must point out my serious doubts that your information is factual, for several reasons:
1. I trust Stalin Period Soviet Data like I trust a drunk man's word. They have throughout history consistently lied about their GDP growth, energy expansion, efficiency and population health, so I can hardly think that I should trust it except from a third party.
2. New Economic Plan farms outperformed their early Lenin period communist counterparts and even then still were hardly "capitalist" in any way above the surface, command directed, command planned, individually owned, does not capitalist make.
3. The Ukraine Famine occurred during Stalin's reign causing I believe the estimates amount to around 8-12 million deaths, I cannot in sound mind accept someone telling me that Stalin's farms in anyway outproduced their previous counterparts if millions died of starvation after those programs were implemented.
Your Friendly Neighborhood Ultra - The Left Wing of the Impossible
Putting the '-sadism' in PosadismKarl Marx, Wage Labour and Capital
Anton Pannekoek, World Revolution and Communist Tactics
Amadeo Bordiga, Dialogue With Stalin
Nikolai Bukharin, The ABC of Communism
Gilles Dauvé, When Insurrections Die"The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a boss."- Bordiga
by UCUMAY » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:54 pm
by Glorious Homeland » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:55 pm
by The Merchant Republics » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:03 pm
Glorious Homeland wrote:Interesting talk of Soviet era farm efficiency, but I think it's not really a good example. Interestingly, a better example might be the Israeli Kibutz farms socialist-zionism worked there for some reason... maybe God likes socialists if they're Jewish?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibutz
by Quailtopia » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:00 pm
The Merchant Republics wrote:Quailtopia wrote:
I'm not entirely sure what this says, but I'd like to point out that the communal farms implemented by Stalin to replace the capitalist ones outperformed their counterparts.
I'd like to see a source for this, but in the mean time, I'll take your point for granted in order to point out that, whether or not they outperformed the soviet farms were certainly not based on any real "communist" ideal, it was tantamount to slave labour, workers were forced onto soviets and had their food often violently seized from them.
by Norstal » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:49 pm
Toronto Sun wrote:Best poster ever. ★★★★★
New York Times wrote:No one can beat him in debates. 5/5.
IGN wrote:Literally the best game I've ever played. 10/10
NSG Public wrote:What a fucking douchebag.
by Occupied Deutschland » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:55 pm
by Quailtopia » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:00 pm
by Sibirsky » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:02 pm
Norstal wrote:Sibirsky wrote:It should be private. Government does not belong in any industry. Government belongs in enforcing contracts, providing protection from invasion, protection from fraud, and protecting rights.
The day the private sector produces driver licenses in the U.S is the day I will orgasm endlessly.
However, there are just some industries that the private sector can't have. Remember TVA? Private hands raised the electricity bill waaay too high.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_ ... rity#1930s
So, I'm not too sure of having all critical industries in private hands.
by Quailtopia » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:09 pm
by Sibirsky » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:29 pm
Sibirsky wrote:And they would be likely to censor websites.
Touché -.- I'd still like the system in place, but indeed, there's no guarantee censorship wouldn't happen...
Sibirsky wrote:Virgin Galactic and crew will continue their operations because eventually it will be profitable.
How much profit is there in technology like Hubble? How is looking at distant galaxies, nebuli, and stars going to bring corporations any profit? All Virgin are doing is space tourism - I don't see them doing anything other than space flights for rich folks in the years to come. Eventually we may get a mining operation on Luna, Mars, and maybe even the asteroid belt beyond the Red Planet. But I happen to like seeing outer space, and knowing more about the entire Solar system, galaxy, local group, and beyond. Virgin's not likely to teach me much.
Also, no comment on NOAA/USGS/similar organisations?
by Norstal » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:39 pm
Sibirsky wrote:Norstal wrote:The day the private sector produces driver licenses in the U.S is the day I will orgasm endlessly.
However, there are just some industries that the private sector can't have. Remember TVA? Private hands raised the electricity bill waaay too high.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_ ... rity#1930s
So, I'm not too sure of having all critical industries in private hands.
The TVA was not private. I am positive of having industry in private hands.
Quailtopia wrote:Norstal wrote:Then this won't work if America becomes Communist; they will have Cuba's shortcomings.
The irony is overwhelming.
1st, Cuba doesn't have any unique non-luxury good shortcomings when you look at it comparatively. Less than 1% of the population lives under the poverty line, compared with the US's 13%.
2nd, Smaller countries don't have the resources larger countries do. The point of the soviet/centrally planned economy is to solve those problems via trade. If there isn't any other centrally-planned economy in the area/outside feasible trade routes, you have to trade with the capitalists.
Toronto Sun wrote:Best poster ever. ★★★★★
New York Times wrote:No one can beat him in debates. 5/5.
IGN wrote:Literally the best game I've ever played. 10/10
NSG Public wrote:What a fucking douchebag.
by Quailtopia » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:40 pm
Sibirsky wrote:Eireann Fae wrote:
Source? Anyway, I think poor kids have a right to a basic education as much as everyone else. Not every family can afford private tuition.
I proposed a voucher system. Have it be based on income. The idea is to offer choice so schools compete and increase quality. And you would save money along the way.
Real spending per pupil [in public schools] ranges from a low of nearly $12,000 in the Phoenix area schools to a high of nearly $27,000 in the New York metro area. The gap between real and reported per-pupil spending ranges from a low of 23 percent in the Chicago area to a high of 90 percent in the Los Angeles metro region.
To put public school spending in perspective, we compare it to estimated total expenditures in local private schools. We find that, in the areas studied, public schools are spending 93 percent more than the estimated median private school.
Citizens drastically underestimate current per-student spending and are misled by official figures. Taxpayers cannot make informed decisions about public school funding unless they know how much districts currently spend. And with state budgets stretched thin, it is more crucial than ever to carefully allocate every tax dollar.
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=11432
by Sibirsky » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:40 pm
Trotskylvania wrote:Perhaps I can shed some light on this.
The kolhoz created under Stalin were basically collective farms in name only. While in theory the land was held in trust by the kolhoz, and the capital tools belonged to the kolhozniks, the reality is that they served as just another apparatus of the party-state. Overwhelmingly, it was the party that appointed the managers of the kolhoz, preventing the kolhoz from voting in any candidate they did not approve. The kolhoz were also subject to forced grain requisition, below the cost of production.
1. There is reliable economic data on the Stalin period now that the Iron Curtain has fallen. The results of the Five Year Plans were mixed at best. It becomes pretty clear from a reading of the internal party correspondence that the agricultural collectivization was never supposed to be an effective economic policy. It served two major purposes to the Soviet state. First, it used the intense exploitation of the peasantry to requisition grain to sell on the world market to finance the heavy industrial development in the cities. Second, it was meant to destroy the peasantry as a politically independent class by forcing them into industrial proletarian working conditions; in essence, it was supposed to "proletarianize" the peasants.
2. No argument here.
3. Like I said above, it was the grain requisition policy, and the counter-reactions that exacerbated existing famine conditions. On the one hand, the Soviets were successful at rapidly mechanizing agriculture during this period. On the other hand, they never allowed the collective farms to actually function as collective farms due to the grain requisition policies, which existed until the Gorbachev era. As a result, no one wanted to work on the collective farms, and instead poured their efforts into their private plots, because grain produced on the collective plots would just get requisitioned by the state.
by Sibirsky » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:49 pm
Quailtopia wrote:1st, Cuba doesn't have any unique non-luxury good shortcomings when you look at it comparatively. Less than 1% of the population lives under the poverty line, compared with the US's 13%.
by Quailtopia » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:50 pm
Norstal wrote:Quailtopia wrote:
1st, Cuba doesn't have any unique non-luxury good shortcomings when you look at it comparatively. Less than 1% of the population lives under the poverty line, compared with the US's 13%.
2nd, Smaller countries don't have the resources larger countries do. The point of the soviet/centrally planned economy is to solve those problems via trade. If there isn't any other centrally-planned economy in the area/outside feasible trade routes, you have to trade with the capitalists.
1. Cuba has 11+ million population. U.S has 300+ million. I can hardly call that fair or about the same, especially when the difference is .2% (if I did my math right[11mil*.01 / 300mil*.13). Not to mention the poverty line probably differs (unless you're talking about the international poverty line). Though I'll admit, the income equality is great.
2. I'm pretty sure Cuba can sustain its population without food donations. Other kinds of resources however, well, maybe.
by Eireann Fae » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:54 pm
Sibirsky wrote:I proposed a voucher system. Have it be based on income. The idea is to offer choice so schools compete and increase quality. And you would save money along the way.
--snip CATO text--
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=11432
Sibirsky wrote:I'm not in the space tourism industry. Eventually they will get cost down and it will be very affordable. Remember computers or CD players, or plasma TVs when they first came out?
The first CD player to be sold in the United States sold for about 86% of the average monthly household income. We don't even have that junk anymore. A 32 GB iPod sells for about 6.8% of the average monthly household income. Now that's what I call progress. [1]
What is government most involved with? Education and healthcare. And those costs are doing quite the opposite.
Are NOAA the assholes that always get the weather wrong? The USGS has been studying resources and drawing funny maps since 1879. What is there left to do?
From daily weather forecasts, severe storm warnings and climate monitoring to fisheries management, coastal restoration and supporting marine commerce, NOAA’s products and services support economic vitality and affect more than one-third of America’s gross domestic product. NOAA’s dedicated scientists use cutting-edge research and high-tech instrumentation to provide citizens, planners, emergency managers and other decision makers with reliable information they need when they need it.
by Quailtopia » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:58 pm
Sibirsky wrote:Quailtopia wrote:1st, Cuba doesn't have any unique non-luxury good shortcomings when you look at it comparatively. Less than 1% of the population lives under the poverty line, compared with the US's 13%.
Cuba has a shortage of just about everything. Such as basic medicine like Aspirin. The US poverty line for one person is higher than the average household income in Cuba. Adjusted for purchasing power parity.
by Sibirsky » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:58 pm
Norstal wrote:What I meant was that before the TVA, prices of electricity was high. It was no wonder that the area around Tennessee Valley was not modernized. By the creation of the TVA and cheap electricity, the region flourished.
Enron didn't know how to make money legally.Course I don't have any sources atm, except for that wiki article. I would point out that Enron too has shady business practices, but I have no knowledge about their downfall.
by Quailtopia » Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:00 am
Sibirsky wrote:Norstal wrote:What I meant was that before the TVA, prices of electricity was high. It was no wonder that the area around Tennessee Valley was not modernized. By the creation of the TVA and cheap electricity, the region flourished.
At taxpayer expense. I'm sorry, but a taxpayer in New York, should not be subsidizing someone in Tennessee.
by Sociobiology » Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:14 am
Sibirsky wrote:Eireann Fae wrote:
Source? Anyway, I think poor kids have a right to a basic education as much as everyone else. Not every family can afford private tuition.
I proposed a voucher system. Have it be based on income. The idea is to offer choice so schools compete and increase quality. And you would save money along the way.
Real spending per pupil [in public schools] ranges from a low of nearly $12,000 in the Phoenix area schools to a high of nearly $27,000 in the New York metro area. The gap between real and reported per-pupil spending ranges from a low of 23 percent in the Chicago area to a high of 90 percent in the Los Angeles metro region.
To put public school spending in perspective, we compare it to estimated total expenditures in local private schools. We find that, in the areas studied, public schools are spending 93 percent more than the estimated median private school.
Citizens drastically underestimate current per-student spending and are misled by official figures. Taxpayers cannot make informed decisions about public school funding unless they know how much districts currently spend. And with state budgets stretched thin, it is more crucial than ever to carefully allocate every tax dollar.
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=11432
Touché -.- I'd still like the system in place, but indeed, there's no guarantee censorship wouldn't happen...
It's almost guaranteed that they would.
How much profit is there in technology like Hubble? How is looking at distant galaxies, nebuli, and stars going to bring corporations any profit? All Virgin are doing is space tourism - I don't see them doing anything other than space flights for rich folks in the years to come. Eventually we may get a mining operation on Luna, Mars, and maybe even the asteroid belt beyond the Red Planet. But I happen to like seeing outer space, and knowing more about the entire Solar system, galaxy, local group, and beyond. Virgin's not likely to teach me much.
Also, no comment on NOAA/USGS/similar organisations?
I'm not in the space tourism industry. Eventually they will get cost down and it will be very affordable. Remember computers or CD players, or plasma TVs when they first came out?
The first CD player to be sold in the United States sold for about 86% of the average monthly household income. We don't even have that junk anymore. A 32 GB iPod sells for about 6.8% of the average monthly household income. Now that's what I call progress.
What is government most involved with? Education and healthcare. And those costs are doing quite the opposite.
Are NOAA the assholes that always get the weather wrong? The USGS has been studying resources and drawing funny maps since 1879. What is there left to do?
by Sibirsky » Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:47 am
Eireann Fae wrote:
How distressingly enlightening (@link). I haven't read the PDF, but I'm totally gonna check it out.
Anyway, about your voucher system. What guarantees are there that it's going to be based on realistic income/budget numbers? I know a woman in a household that pulls in a combined salary of $50,000 or so for two adults and an adolescent. They live in a trailer they own, paying $350/mo lot rent plus usual bills. Both adults were buying vehicles from the late-90s/early-00s, and recently had to give one up because they couldn't afford the payments. They're barely making ends meet, even though at that salary they should be doing alright. I think $44k is the cutoff for such a family to receive government aid, but they certainly wouldn't be able to afford schooling for the kid. Do they get a voucher, or is it "tough luck, enjoy your job returning carts to shopping centers, kid"?
Sibirsky wrote:I'm not in the space tourism industry. Eventually they will get cost down and it will be very affordable. Remember computers or CD players, or plasma TVs when they first came out?
The first CD player to be sold in the United States sold for about 86% of the average monthly household income. We don't even have that junk anymore. A 32 GB iPod sells for about 6.8% of the average monthly household income. Now that's what I call progress. [1]
What is government most involved with? Education and healthcare. And those costs are doing quite the opposite.
Are NOAA the assholes that always get the weather wrong? The USGS has been studying resources and drawing funny maps since 1879. What is there left to do?
1 What does anything to this point have to do with space exploration? I'm well aware that they'll likely be able to get the price of "kiss the black" trips down to a few thousand dollars a ticket in a decade or so, and I even suggested that it'd be economically viable to mine the moon, Mars, and inner solar system asteroids for minerals in the coming years. But who's going to study Andromeda? What corporation is gonna give a shit about Alpha Centuari? What economic benefit will motivate a private corporation to study anything beyond inner space?
According to NOAA, the organization does a lot more than fuck up local forecasts (emphasis mine):From daily weather forecasts, severe storm warnings and climate monitoring to fisheries management, coastal restoration and supporting marine commerce, NOAA’s products and services support economic vitality and affect more than one-third of America’s gross domestic product. NOAA’s dedicated scientists use cutting-edge research and high-tech instrumentation to provide citizens, planners, emergency managers and other decision makers with reliable information they need when they need it.
Similarly, the USGS does a lot more than you give them credit for. The Earth is not a static environment. Things have changed a lot since 1879, and things will continue to change.
by Sibirsky » Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:51 am
Quailtopia wrote:Well, its not really a food donation, its trade... But given that its denied the largest consumer economy, Cuba is doing extremely well, and has education up to post-doc free of charge.
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