How would a Communist society look like?

[Quailtopia]

How distressingly enlightening (@link). I haven't read the PDF, but I'm totally gonna check it out.

Anyway, about your voucher system. What guarantees are there that it's going to be based on realistic income/budget numbers? I know a woman in a household that pulls in a combined salary of $50,000 or so for two adults and an adolescent. They live in a trailer they own, paying $350/mo lot rent plus usual bills. Both adults were buying vehicles from the late-90s/early-00s, and recently had to give one up because they couldn't afford the payments. They're barely making ends meet, even though at that salary they should be doing alright. I think $44k is the cutoff for such a family to receive government aid, but they certainly wouldn't be able to afford schooling for the kid. Do they get a voucher, or is it "tough luck, enjoy your job returning carts to shopping centers, kid"?

Does this couple have a lot of debt?

Average US household has almost $17,000 in debt, so it wouldn't be surprising.

[Sibirsky]

Cuba has a shortage of just about everything. Such as basic medicine like Aspirin. The US poverty line for one person is higher than the average household income in Cuba. Adjusted for purchasing power parity.

On medicine, Cuba has almost the highest life expectancy rating in the region, and its AIDS education program has lessened the impact to 1/6 of the US cases, per capita, and provides generic anti-retroviral drugs for the people.

This is utter bullshit.
http://old.nationalreview.com/nordlinge ... -30-07.asp
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 26946.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25_RgM1j ... r_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6Ve9wA1 ... re=related
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/ChrisField ... ealth_care

As for the income, what do you spend money on when food, education, and healthcare is free?

Food is free? How about a car made after 1960? A TV? Satellite tv and an internet connection? A surround sound system? A dinner and a movie? A cell phone? A computer? Donations to charity?

Why don't you go to Cuba and ask for political asylum?

[Sibirsky]

At taxpayer expense. I'm sorry, but a taxpayer in New York, should not be subsidizing someone in Tennessee.

Why?

Because the taxpayer in New York has no fucking use for it.

[Quailtopia]

And an average doctor makes $25 per month, and works a taxi driver on the side to make ends meet. If you could convince a court of law that you believe this nonsense, you would be found not guilty by reason of insanity.

As for the income, what do you spend money on when food, education, and healthcare is free?

Besides my earlier answer, the supply of doctors has outstripped local demand, having twice the amount that the US does per capita.

Why?

Because the taxpayer in New York has no fucking use for it.

So you should only pay for things you want, and not have any public anything?

[Sibirsky]

but private schools preform so poorly on average, that encouraging them isn't helping, schooling is one of those things that is impossible to evaluate at purchase since you don't receive the product for many year at which time its to late, but poorly run private schools can advertise and still bilk people in ruining the education of what could be intelligent students. phoenix online but for fifth graders now. one of the most important parts of public schools is standards. How about we enforce that again, say by letting kids actually fail and telling the parents pissing a moaning wont get Timmy a free pass. plus does it really surprise your that a school with 10,000 students spends close to 100 times more than schools with 1000. but I come from the state with the highest rated school system in the country so I might be biased. but I look at countries with better school systems on every measurable axis and they all have public systems, with better funding than ours I might add (and fewer management positions in the school as well).

We rank #2 in education spending. The money is not an issue. When schools compete for students, they will perform better. Standards should be set certainly. And yes, kids that do fail should be failed. You evaluate through ratings and other information. How do you pick a private school now? Why should a school with 10 times more students spend 100 times more money? Did you miss a 0? I pointed out that public schools spend more per student.

[Quailtopia]

On medicine, Cuba has almost the highest life expectancy rating in the region, and its AIDS education program has lessened the impact to 1/6 of the US cases, per capita, and provides generic anti-retroviral drugs for the people.

This is utter bullshit.
http://old.nationalreview.com/nordlinge ... -30-07.asp
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 26946.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25_RgM1j ... r_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6Ve9wA1 ... re=related
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/ChrisField ... ealth_care

Oh? Check the CIA factbook for AIDS(under people) and the retroviral info is here. You'll note that one source is the US gov and the other is a case study, not 3 links that don't work and 2 republican papers.

As for the income, what do you spend money on when food, education, and healthcare is free?

Food is free? How about a car made after 1960? A TV? Satellite tv and an internet connection? A surround sound system? A dinner and a movie? A cell phone? A computer? Donations to charity?

Why don't you go to Cuba and ask for political asylum?

What use is that?

Don't agree with their politics.

[Norstal]

And an average doctor makes $25 per month, and works a taxi driver on the side to make ends meet. If you could convince a court of law that you believe this nonsense, you would be found not guilty by reason of insanity.

As for the income, what do you spend money on when food, education, and healthcare is free?

Besides my earlier answer, the supply of doctors has outstripped local demand, having twice the amount that the US does per capita.

A doctor without an examination bed is a useless doctor. Much like a surgeon without a scalpel is a useless surgeon.

Because the taxpayer in New York has no fucking use for it.

So you should only pay for things you want, and not have any public anything?

Err, that is what he said. The only public he wants is military (and justice?) funding.

[Sibirsky]

Besides my earlier answer, the supply of doctors has outstripped local demand, having twice the amount that the US does per capita.

No it hasn't. Cuba has a lot of doctors working abroad, making cold hard cash for Castro.

So you should only pay for things you want, and not have any public anything?

You know, I can at least some logic in an argument for taxation that provides some benefit to the people. The military for national defense, defending New Yorkers and Tennesseans should be funded by everyone. A local service, for the benefit of only Tennesseans should not be funded by New Yorkers.

[Sibirsky]

This is utter bullshit.
http://old.nationalreview.com/nordlinge ... -30-07.asp
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 26946.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25_RgM1j ... r_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6Ve9wA1 ... re=related
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/ChrisField ... ealth_care

Oh? Check the CIA factbook for AIDS(under people) and the retroviral info is here. You'll note that one source is the US gov and the other is a case study, not 3 links that don't work and 2 republican papers.

I apologize for the links, will try to look for alternatives.

The Cuban government is not a source.

Food is free? How about a car made after 1960? A TV? Satellite tv and an internet connection? A surround sound system? A dinner and a movie? A cell phone? A computer? Donations to charity?

Why don't you go to Cuba and ask for political asylum?

What use is that?

Don't agree with their politics.

Because it's doing so well.

[Sibirsky]

Err, that is what he said. The only public he wants is military (and justice?) funding.

How is it fair to make a guy in New York, pay for a project in Tennessee that will never use it?

[Quailtopia]

Oh? Check the CIA factbook for AIDS(under people) and the retroviral info is here. You'll note that one source is the US gov and the other is a case study, not 3 links that don't work and 2 republican papers.

I apologize for the links, will try to look for alternatives.

The Cuban government is not a source.

You didn't even read it! Its a case study by the WHO, not the Cuban government.

What use is that?

Don't agree with their politics.

Because it's doing so well.

It is, actually. The sources provided above testify to that.

[Sibirsky]

I apologize for the links, will try to look for alternatives.

The Cuban government is not a source.

You didn't even read it! Its a case study by the WHO, not the Cuban government.

You think the WHO went to Cuba and did the research? They use the Cuban government's numbers

[Sibirsky]

It is, actually. The sources provided above testify to that.

No it isn't. It's a a hell hole.

[Norstal]

Err, that is what he said. The only public he wants is military (and justice?) funding.

How is it fair to make a guy in New York, pay for a project in Tennessee that will never use it?

Because the people in Tennessee can then fund projects in New York.

[Quailtopia]

You didn't even read it! Its a case study by the WHO, not the Cuban government.

You think the WHO went to Cuba and did the research? They use the Cuban government's numbers

Once again, if you read it, you'd see that they ran independent numbers as verification. This is going in my sig...

It is, actually. The sources provided above testify to that.

No it isn't. It's a a hell hole.

You can say that all you want, but free healthcare, food, and education sounds pretty fucking awesome, and I've got sources for all my claims.

[Chinese Regions]

The prefect Communist society only exists in theory. Practically, it's impossible.

Really for me the only true communist state was the Soviet Union BEFORE Stalin came a long a messed it up.

[Quailtopia]

The prefect Communist society only exists in theory. Practically, it's impossible.

Really for me the only true communist state was the Soviet Union BEFORE Stalin came a long a messed it up.

My favorite thing about that claim is that it usually comes from people who don't know that Trotsky advocated the immediate death of all kulaks, and that Stalin was a moderate until he kicked Trotsky out.

[Pyravar]

USSR. A failure.

[Sibirsky]

Once again, if you read it, you'd see that they ran independent numbers as verification. This is going in my sig...

Independent numbers based on what? Cuba has 3 tiers of healthcare. For the ruling class, the paying foreigners, and the Cubans. I'm talking about the healthcare for the Cubans. And foreigners are not granted access to those facilities.

You can say that all you want, but free healthcare, food, and education sounds pretty fucking awesome, and I've got sources for all my claims.

Source for free food. And you do realize that none of that is actually free correct?

Here's you wonderful healthcare
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25_RgM1jHeo

[Quailtopia]

Once again, if you read it, you'd see that they ran independent numbers as verification. This is going in my sig...

Independent numbers based on what? Cuba has 3 tiers of healthcare. For the ruling class, the paying foreigners, and the Cubans. I'm talking about the healthcare for the Cubans. And foreigners are not granted access to those facilities.

Once again, if you read it, ART is cross-tier'd. Also: Cuba spends about 7.6% GDP on health care, as opposed to the US's rate of 16%.

You can say that all you want, but free healthcare, food, and education sounds pretty fucking awesome, and I've got sources for all my claims.

Source for free food. And you do realize that none of that is actually free correct?

Cuba's agricultural model.

EDIT: fucked up the quote system.
EDIT2: as for the 'realizing its not actually free' thing, I do. But I don't see whats wrong with having a system that works the same way that US soldiers pay into their healthcare, so that they can have it later in case they don't have any money.

[Risottia]

Anyway, since the key point of communism is removing the Mehrwert relationships - it wouldn't look much too different from most societies nowadays. Just without the ueberluxury our societies reserve for the richest 1% of the population.

What?

Edit: Marxism isn't just the labor theory of value...

But Mehrwert, according to Marx's analysis, is the core mechanism of the capitalistic society. As defined by Marx & Engels, the Communist movement/party is the movement that strives to eliminate capitalism. Hence, the key issue for a communist society is removing the accumulation of the Mehrwert.

[Glorious Homeland]

Interesting talk of Soviet era farm efficiency, but I think it's not really a good example. Interestingly, a better example might be the Israeli Kibutz farms socialist-zionism worked there for some reason... maybe God likes socialists if they're Jewish?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibutz

My understanding is that the Kibbutz are in no way self-sufficient being largely dependent on pro-Zionist charities and most labour is provided not by the Kibbutz workers themselves but hired helpers again at the expense of state subsidies and charity, this is coming from some obscure reading I did months ago, so if you can perhaps present some evidence to the contrary I would like to see it.

Of course, in my opinion on the matter of socialism, I have never dismissed the possibility that it could work on a limited scale, such as a farming community. I have seen evidence to suggest it doesn't, but if I were to concede it's possibility it would only be in such a scale with such an agrarian economy.

I don't know very much on the subject, I just threw it in there with the possibility it could contribute, heh.

You know what I think would be a good exercise though? If you, as a pro-individualist capitalist try and suggest how a sustainable collectivist communist society could work, and ask a communist here to suggest how a sustainable capitalist society with little government and no regulation could work

[Concordeia]

How distressingly enlightening (@link). I haven't read the PDF, but I'm totally gonna check it out.

Anyway, about your voucher system. What guarantees are there that it's going to be based on realistic income/budget numbers? I know a woman in a household that pulls in a combined salary of $50,000 or so for two adults and an adolescent. They live in a trailer they own, paying $350/mo lot rent plus usual bills. Both adults were buying vehicles from the late-90s/early-00s, and recently had to give one up because they couldn't afford the payments. They're barely making ends meet, even though at that salary they should be doing alright. I think $44k is the cutoff for such a family to receive government aid, but they certainly wouldn't be able to afford schooling for the kid. Do they get a voucher, or is it "tough luck, enjoy your job returning carts to shopping centers, kid"?

Does this couple have a lot of debt? Their income is higher than the median household income in the US. Simply doesn't add up. I would go with the average household income, take the average cost of education per student and go from there. I don't know what you mean by guarantees. After all this is a system proposed by some dude on the internet. It all depends on how you set it up.

I'm not in the space tourism industry. Eventually they will get cost down and it will be very affordable. Remember computers or CD players, or plasma TVs when they first came out?

The first CD player to be sold in the United States sold for about 86% of the average monthly household income. We don't even have that junk anymore. A 32 GB iPod sells for about 6.8% of the average monthly household income. Now that's what I call progress. ^[1]

What is government most involved with? Education and healthcare. And those costs are doing quite the opposite.

Are NOAA the assholes that always get the weather wrong? The USGS has been studying resources and drawing funny maps since 1879. What is there left to do?

¹ What does anything to this point have to do with space exploration? I'm well aware that they'll likely be able to get the price of "kiss the black" trips down to a few thousand dollars a ticket in a decade or so, and I even suggested that it'd be economically viable to mine the moon, Mars, and inner solar system asteroids for minerals in the coming years. But who's going to study Andromeda? What corporation is gonna give a shit about Alpha Centuari? What economic benefit will motivate a private corporation to study anything beyond inner space?

According to NOAA, the organization does a lot more than fuck up local forecasts (emphasis mine):



Similarly, the USGS does a lot more than you give them credit for. The Earth is not a static environment. Things have changed a lot since 1879, and things will continue to change.

I was pointing out how the private sector drives costs down, and government drives costs up. If there is money to be made from studying the Alpha Centauri and Andromeda it will be done. If there isn't then it shouldn't be done. Why force the taxpayers to pay for something they don't want? If they did want it, the private sector would do it and it would be profitable.

The weather forecast and related research should be funded by those that want to provide it to the public. It can and should be profitable.

Wow, unbelievable. Do you realize how little knowledge of the stars, planets, our galaxy and the universe we would have if we based such research only on its monetary value? I know I'M certainly interested in space, and very likely many others are as well, so for me, publicly-funded research is a good thing. Anyone who thinks we should be deprived of knowledge just because someone can't make a buck off of it can go screw themselves as far as I'm concerned.

[Concordeia]

Why?

Because the taxpayer in New York has no fucking use for it.

Electricity is a universal need, so there's no reason energy cannot or should not be publicly funded. If it's all paid for by taxes then location doesn't even matter.

[Sibirsky]

Wow, unbelievable. Do you realize how little knowledge of the stars, planets, our galaxy and the universe we would have if we based such research only on its monetary value? I know I'M certainly interested in space, and very likely many others are as well, so for me, publicly-funded research is a good thing. Anyone who thinks we should be deprived of knowledge just because someone can't make a buck off of it can go screw themselves as far as I'm concerned.

If many people are interested, it would be profitable. How dare you steal money from those not interested to pay for this research?