Why is health care a business?

[Fartsniffage]

Guess who's paying them? I was remarking the blind people who call health care a "right"

Umm, I am.

[Greed and Death]

Or pay for your own health care.

So the system is freer and has access to much greater economies of scale for private treatment than the single payer systems yet is still more expensive and not as good.

Where is that free market fairy?

Well because I actually argue about my bills, and choose to forgo things like extra pain pills to save a buck my bills are significantly below average. Oh and I shop around to find he cheapest clinic and doctors in town.

[Sibirsky]

Becasue there're still a shit load of regulations in USA. Against the healthcare system. It is the scond most regulated businesses, followed by banking.

Hahahaha...seriously? Government regulations are why insurance companies continue increasing premiums while decreasing benefits despite record profits?

Bullshit. Insurers raise premiums because their costs are going up. Doctors raise costs because it doesn't diminish demand. Comprehensive insurance is decreasing coverage? 3% is record profits?

[Fartsniffage]

Well because I actually argue about my bills, and choose to forgo things like extra pain pills to save a buck my bills are significantly below average. Oh and I shop around to find he cheapest clinic and doctors in town.

Wait until you or someone you care about gets cancer.

[Sibirsky]

It does. If you can get it, it's top notch. Better than Europe's. And Japan's.

The problem is cost. Access is somewhat of a problem, predominately because of cost. Cost is a problem because there is no free market in US healthcare.

There is more of a free market than there is in the single payer nations and at vastly greater economies of scale too.

Could it not be that the inherent greed inherent in human nature means that some very unpleasant calculations take place meaning that the poor are ignored in favour of treating those with money at the point of maximum profit?

There is no free market. The majority of people are not free to choose their insurance.

[Fartsniffage]

Doctors raise costs because it doesn't diminish demand.

I think you've just hit upon why the free market isn't the best way to deal with healthcare.

[Jervak]

Healthcare is fucking expensive in the US, and insurance is ridiculous.

How can you justify NOT having socialized healthcare, even in an otherwise capitalist country?

Logically, if you reject public healthcare, you should also reject public education.

Cuba's socialized healthcare system is better than the privatized one in the US. It is empirically workable.

Anyway, I'd rather wait in line for healthcare than get nothing at all.

[Fartsniffage]

There is no free market. The majority of people are not free to choose their insurance.

I didn't say free, I said freer, as in more free.

The world isn't black and white.

[Sibirsky]

Your insurance provider has nothing to do with the free market and would do anything and everything in their power to avoid it. The reason they can fuck with you is because you are stuck with them. Chances are your employer pays for your insurance with them. Meaning you have no choice. You cannot go and pick another insurer. You still like your group coverage?

Well guess what? I have had 5 of the major players from each company I've worked and or company changing plans. Guess what? They all pretty much play from the same playbook.

Much to the shock of your free market fantasies; an insurance can you give a shit what I want. Why would they? A few thousand dollars a year. Big whoop. Now a company saying we want this or we take our (my current company) 5000 polices elsewhere, they will listen to them before they listen to me.

And shock we do get some choices. The company sends out what would people like questionnaires. Some stuff does make into the plan.....

You entirely ignore the fact that in a genuine free market people would leave insurers like that in droves. They would care about that.

[Wolffbaden]

The service is useless, outdated, and unfair to those that do not use it.

Huh. Look at how many DO use it, however. This is their 2010 3rd quarter report.

http://www.usps.com/financials/_pdf/QSR_FY10QT3.pdf

That's a lot of people in this country using this "useless, outdated, unfair" government service you speak of... lol.

It did not have overnight delivery.

It's had overnight delivery since the 1990s. Where have you been?

It said they could not do it.

Citation. Kthnx. I doubt very much they said themselves that overnight delivery was impossible on their part.

That is until FedEx came in with overnight delivery.

You do know that the United States Postal Service has this same function, too, right? For letters and packages? And for far cheaper rates than either FedEx or UPS, on that note, for heavy, large-sized packages?

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/mone ... ces-ov.htm

FedEx only has them beat on ground shipping costs there. By .52 cents.

In other words, it's a typical government program.

That's widely used, incredibly effective given that it has so much to deliver, and very cheap.

EDIT:

And available to all United States citizens- including lower priority citizens living in provinces such as Puerto Rico.

[Sungai Pusat]

Doctors raise costs because it doesn't diminish demand.

I think you've just hit upon why the free market isn't the best way to deal with healthcare.

No, there is a limit to how high. SIbirsky did not include how high. It could just be a penny extra, or it could be an additional dollar.

[New Genoa]

Hahahaha...seriously? Government regulations are why insurance companies continue increasing premiums while decreasing benefits despite record profits?

Bullshit. Insurers raise premiums because their costs are going up. Doctors raise costs because it doesn't diminish demand. Comprehensive insurance is decreasing coverage? 3% is record profits?

Premiums have been raised 5 to 10 times larger than the growth rate in national health care expenditures (http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/ins ... index.html). Why do companies need to spike their rate 39-56%? The largest insurers profits have risen 250 times in the past 10 years. Yea...I'd say they're doing quite well. Also, where do you get the 3% number from?

[New Genoa]

Well guess what? I have had 5 of the major players from each company I've worked and or company changing plans. Guess what? They all pretty much play from the same playbook.

Much to the shock of your free market fantasies; an insurance can you give a shit what I want. Why would they? A few thousand dollars a year. Big whoop. Now a company saying we want this or we take our (my current company) 5000 polices elsewhere, they will listen to them before they listen to me.

And shock we do get some choices. The company sends out what would people like questionnaires. Some stuff does make into the plan.....

You entirely ignore the fact that in a genuine free market people would leave insurers like that in droves. They would care about that.

Do you have empirical data to back up this assertion? Do we have any "genuine free markets" from which we can draw this conclusion, or is this just typical (edit: before Hydesland eviscerates me) Austrian economics making theoretical claims with no real world applications?

[Greed and Death]

Well because I actually argue about my bills, and choose to forgo things like extra pain pills to save a buck my bills are significantly below average. Oh and I shop around to find he cheapest clinic and doctors in town.

Wait until you or someone you care about gets cancer.

My cousin already had cancer her family's(my uncle and aunt) HSA account covered treatment for the first round, then and covered treatment on the relapse.

[Fartsniffage]

No, there is a limit to how high. SIbirsky did not include how high. It could just be a penny extra, or it could be an additional dollar.

Feel free to take you custom away from doctors in the same way that you could boycott electronics manufacturers if you thought they were gouging you.

[Fartsniffage]

My cousin already had cancer her family's(my uncle and aunt) HSA account covered treatment for the first round, then and covered treatment on the relapse.

Good for them. How much did it cost them?

[Sungai Pusat]

No, there is a limit to how high. SIbirsky did not include how high. It could just be a penny extra, or it could be an additional dollar.

Feel free to take you custom away from doctors in the same way that you could boycott electronics manufacturers if you thought they were gouging you.

Well, there is also something I completely forgot: Quality. They have better justification to raise prices if the quality is higher. If it is too high, though, then people will choose another insurance company.

[Wolffbaden]

You entirely ignore the fact that in a genuine free market people would leave insurers like that in droves. They would care about that.

Do you have empirical data to back up this assertion? Do we have any "genuine free markets" from which we can draw this conclusion, or is this just typical economics making theoretical claims with no real world applications?

It's the latter. I have slowly begun to confirm my original hypothesis about this particular specimen, Sibirsky: he lives in his own imaginary economic dreamworld where free markets and privatization and commercialization can solve all the world's problems.

It's funny how so many businesses and companies promise how they'll all help you and treat you like you're royalty. Just listen to some of their commercials on the TV. Yet, strangely enough, we still have heaps of problems in our lives.

[Fartsniffage]

Well, there is also something I completely forgot: Quality. They have better justification to raise prices if the quality is higher. If it is too high, though, then people will choose another insurance company.

We're talking about doctors, not insurance companies.

How do you pick and choose while you're unconcious?

[New Genoa]

Feel free to take you custom away from doctors in the same way that you could boycott electronics manufacturers if you thought they were gouging you.

Well, there is also something I completely forgot: Quality. They have better justification to raise prices if the quality is higher. If it is too high, though, then people will choose another insurance company.

That's not how it works. Have you ever had a job?

[Greed and Death]

No, there is a limit to how high. SIbirsky did not include how high. It could just be a penny extra, or it could be an additional dollar.

Feel free to take you custom away from doctors in the same way that you could boycott electronics manufacturers if you thought they were gouging you.

If it is emergency room stuff, get the treatment then contest the bill afterward. They have limited recourse as it was not something you agreed to pay.
If you do research and figure out what they charge the cheapest insurance company you can normally settle for that somewhere between that rate or 50% of that rate. (and they still are making one heck of a mark up off you).
If it is not emergency room stuff shop around and find a cheap doctor they do exist, and a lot of them do not like to deal with health insurance companies. Some if you come off as not psycho will even write your prescriptions for antibiotics and decongestants with an email request and an under the counter payment (rather then going through he clinic. they work at.)

[Sungai Pusat]

Well, there is also something I completely forgot: Quality. They have better justification to raise prices if the quality is higher. If it is too high, though, then people will choose another insurance company.

We're talking about doctors, not insurance companies.

How do you pick and choose while you're unconcious?

Well, you can't. But you can always choose an insurance plan before you're unconcious. Of course, if you don't buy for one first hand, then hard cheese on you if you become sick and can't pay.

[Greed and Death]

My cousin already had cancer her family's(my uncle and aunt) HSA account covered treatment for the first round, then and covered treatment on the relapse.

Good for them. How much did it cost them?

Didn't get in detail but on the order of 60k altogether.

[Fartsniffage]

Well, you can't. But you can always choose an insurance plan before you're unconcious. Of course, if you don't buy for one first hand, then hard cheese on you if you become sick and can't pay.

DOCTORS, we're talking about DOCTORS.

[MisanthropicPopulism]

Doctors raise costs because it doesn't diminish demand.

Cut out the asininity and even Sibirsky can identify why health care as a business screws people over.