Why is health care a business?

[Sungai Pusat]

Yet that's what creates the best products. Competition drives quality up, and prices down.

You'd think so wouldn't you?

So why doesn't the US have the best healthcare system in the western world?

Becasue there're still a shit load of regulations in USA. Against the healthcare system. It is the scond most regulated businesses, followed by banking.

[Sibirsky]

Is that the US average? You're forgetting one important fact. The US does not have a free market in healthcare. The cost would be lower than it is today.

It has a freer market than the single payer countries so why isn't it cheaper than them?

Freer market? The market is not free, a typical person has no choice in insurance what so ever. You work at XYZ you get ABC insurance. You deductible is X. You work for DEF you get GHI insurance and your deductible is 2X. What exactly is free? The insurers are free to raise prices without reducing demand? That's not a free market.

[New Genoa]

You'd think so wouldn't you?

So why doesn't the US have the best healthcare system in the western world?

Becasue there're still a shit load of regulations in USA. Against the healthcare system. It is the scond most regulated businesses, followed by banking.

Hahahaha...seriously? Government regulations are why insurance companies continue increasing premiums while decreasing benefits despite record profits?

[Fartsniffage]

It does. If you can get it, it's top notch. Better than Europe's. And Japan's.

The problem is cost. Access is somewhat of a problem, predominately because of cost. Cost is a problem because there is no free market in US healthcare.

There is more of a free market than there is in the single payer nations and at vastly greater economies of scale too.

Could it not be that the inherent greed inherent in human nature means that some very unpleasant calculations take place meaning that the poor are ignored in favour of treating those with money at the point of maximum profit?

[Fartsniffage]

Oh, OK.

USA: Taxed out on $4.536 trillion
GDP: $14.545 trillion
Percentage Taxed: 31.2%

Source

Nope, in Singapore, the single, and those without children, are subjected to only a 5% income tax. If you add all of the taxes up, they become 7% of a person's income.

You're from Singapore?

[The Black Forrest]

Indeed. Don't you know if you remove all regulations, there wouldn't be any cheating anymore? Delay of claims, denial of claims for vagaue reasons or just outright BS.

tangent: I am having an argument with my freemarket minded insurance company whose "expert" a gynecologist said my allergist used an experimental test that really wasn't needed.

Your insurance provider has nothing to do with the free market and would do anything and everything in their power to avoid it. The reason they can fuck with you is because you are stuck with them. Chances are your employer pays for your insurance with them. Meaning you have no choice. You cannot go and pick another insurer. You still like your group coverage?

Well guess what? I have had 5 of the major players from each company I've worked and or company changing plans. Guess what? They all pretty much play from the same playbook.

Much to the shock of your free market fantasies; an insurance can you give a shit what I want. Why would they? A few thousand dollars a year. Big whoop. Now a company saying we want this or we take our (my current company) 5000 polices elsewhere, they will listen to them before they listen to me.

And shock we do get some choices. The company sends out what would people like questionnaires. Some stuff does make into the plan.....

[Sibirsky]

Provide me a source of the government providing a better good or service than businesses competing in a free market.

United States Postal Service, a cheap service, and is a pretty good one too. In fact, people think it has a unfair advantage over private services: http://www.postmasters.org/legislation/ ... s/1_14.pdf

The service is useless, outdated, and unfair to those that do not use it. It did not have overnight delivery. It said they could not do it. That is until FedEx came in with overnight delivery. In other words, it's a typical government program. Try again.

[Wolffbaden]

Yes. /thread

The government is able to breed doctors? It's able to create medicine out of thin air? And medical equipment? That shit ain't free.

Who finances the colleges and universities that train doctors? Who offers those same establishments grant money when they produce high-quality workers? Who finances the researchers who create medicines and treatments and new equipment for patients? Who negotiates large-scale trade deals with the surrounding nations that produce the tools and equipment we use in medicine- for both civilians and the medical corps of the military? Who, in your imaginary world? In the real world, it's the federal government.

Cuban healthcare is a joke.

The reason being because they have never had good-quality education for their physicians. We do not have that problem so much here in the United States (although we are ranked lower than almost all European nations); our biggest problem is a shitty system that we're basing our care off of. We could have a system just as good as Germany's if we actually tried. Regrettably, we don't. The recent health care bill passed was dumbed down so much by compromise between the Democrats and Republicans it has unfortunately been rendered ineffective in opening up health care for all. It is a step in the right direction, however.

You know who else has universal healthcare? North Korea.

With their problem being the same as Cuba's: lacking good-quality medical education.

You know how they perform amputations? Without anesthesia.

Citation for this outlandish claim. Kthnx.

You know who else has universal health care? Sweden. Do you know what they're ranked world-wide for health care quality? Usually, 1st. They are never ranked lower than 3rd.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4460098.stm

They have never dropped below the United States in quality, either. Indeed, the United States is ranked lower in quality.

Business competing in a free market are able to provide goods and services of better quality,

Funny, because the Swedes have always ranked higher than the United States for health care quality- yet their system is totally controlled by the government and funded with taxes levied by councils and municipalities. According to you, that should not be the case. But this really isn't surprising to anyone with any real-world experience. Businesses are not competing when it comes to health care; it's more a focus for them of profits. How much are we making off our patients vs. how much are we having to spend on them- and how much will we have made in the end?

for better prices than any centrally planned system.

Yet it can easily cost a person anywhere from $1,500-$4,000 for spending ONE DAY in an intensive care unit. My brother, as we speak, has been in Boone Regional Hospital's recovery ward in Missouri since Monday of last week following an intestinal infection. His bill is already over $30,000- and he probably isn't going to get out for another five days at least. This does not even include all the money he's been charged for tests, food and water, and actual medicine (they've pumped antibiotics in him all week long). I'm definitely going to get a copy of the final bill and scan then post it here for all to see- just to show that this talk of our prices being better than anyone else is absolute nonsense. In Germany, for instance, you pay nothing for admission/access fees. They don't exist there, but they do in the United States.

EDIT:

The problem in the US is that we have businesses providing the good and services, but we do not have a free market in healthcare. And the government has been protecting them.

Free markets are not the answer to everything in real life. Maybe in your world, but not here. What we need is education and training that follows the same strict ground rules as what the Europeans have and either severely limit or eliminate entirely the control companies have over the quality of care that they administer to their patients (and the ridiculous amounts they charge patients; in some cases, it's understandable because of the amount of intensive work that has to be done; but in the end, they are a business and their main focus is making money; that all too many times determines what a patient has to pay, not to mention the issue of insurance).

[Fartsniffage]

Have you eliminated other factors ? population density ? The inability to sue doctors in the UK (if my understanding of them being government employees and sovereign immunity is correct)?

You can sue, Crown immunity doesn't apply to the NHS. You just sue the healthcare authority rather than the individual doctor unless they're private.

[Sibirsky]

For the overwhelming majority of people. There will be a few genuinely poor that would not be able to afford it no matter how much it costs. They will be taken care of by non-profits.

Let's take a deep breath and look at reality for a second shall we?
1 for a business to work in a free market system it has to make money
2 every time an insurance company pays for treatment that costs money (often a lot of money)
3 thus the minimum amount an insurance company can charge is based on a rather simply statistical calculation where one takes into account the odds of a person getting sick, how much that will cost the company and then you work out what you must charge each person to make slightly more than you will lose.
4 poor people tend to get sick more often than middle class folks who tend to get sick more often than rich folks ( a function of the environment in which one lives job stress etc.)
5 therefor it is almost impossible to cover the poor affordably and also make a profit without cutting services somehow

Costs would be lower than they are today.

[Sungai Pusat]

Becasue there're still a shit load of regulations in USA. Against the healthcare system. It is the scond most regulated businesses, followed by banking.

Hahahaha...seriously? Government regulations are why insurance companies continue increasing premiums while decreasing benefits despite record profits?

Yes. But even so, whe did you hear about record profits? The news channels? Don't listen to the news on TV anymore. The average profit margin for every single insurance company is 6%. The news channels get a profit margin of 42% or more.

[Fartsniffage]

Freer market? The market is not free, a typical person has no choice in insurance what so ever. You work at XYZ you get ABC insurance. You deductible is X. You work for DEF you get GHI insurance and your deductible is 2X. What exactly is free? The insurers are free to raise prices without reducing demand? That's not a free market.

So you can only get insurance through your employer?

[Sibirsky]

Yes. It's idiotic. If you switch jobs, or move to another state, you have to switch insurance carriers. Neither one has anything to do with insurance.

And the tax penalty for those that want to buy their own.

How else would they get it? You don't actually think that eliminating employer-provided insurance would mean employers would pay more in wages, do you?

How else? How about they choose what coverage they want? Based on whatever factors they deem important to them.

You realize that employer provided insurance started as a way for businesses to attract talent when wages were control, right?

[Sungai Pusat]

Freer market? The market is not free, a typical person has no choice in insurance what so ever. You work at XYZ you get ABC insurance. You deductible is X. You work for DEF you get GHI insurance and your deductible is 2X. What exactly is free? The insurers are free to raise prices without reducing demand? That's not a free market.

So you can only get insurance through your employer?

Yes, that is exactly it. If I remember correctly, another bad regulation caused employees to be forced out of ther paychecks their own money or healthcare. Thus, your real salary is hindered from view.

[Zephie]

Well democrats, like in history, have always been a fan of slavery. Whether it's forcing someone to pick cotton, forcing someone to pay for somebody else's food and housing, or saying they have a right to a medical professional's labor.

[Sibirsky]

It has a freer market than the single payer countries so why isn't it cheaper than them?

Have you eliminated other factors ? population density ? The inability to sue doctors in the UK (if my understanding of them being government employees and sovereign immunity is correct)?

Oh god. I forgot a big one. Two big ones. Malpractice insurance is 6 digits. And the AMA drives doctor's wages up.

[Trippoli]

United States Postal Service, a cheap service, and is a pretty good one too. In fact, people think it has a unfair advantage over private services: http://www.postmasters.org/legislation/ ... s/1_14.pdf

The service is useless, outdated, and unfair to those that do not use it. It did not have overnight delivery. It said they could not do it. That is until FedEx came in with overnight delivery. In other words, it's a typical government program. Try again.

You missed the point of the link.

The USPS was committed to services other private businesses were not committed to. Such as delivering to small rural areas that do not deliver "profit".

The perks that a government program has is it will deliver maximum service to as much people as it can, rather than serve a bulk of people and ignore others that can not deliver the goods. In other words, the Government isn't out for profit, yet it still is more committed. Try reading the link next time.

[Fartsniffage]

Well democrats, like in history, have always been a fan of slavery. Whether it's forcing someone to pick cotton, forcing someone to pay for somebody else's food and housing, or saying they have a right to a medical professional's labor.

Yes, god forbid I was force to work for the average NHS GP salary in the UK.

I don't know how I'd make ends meet on £120,000 a year.

[Zephie]

Freer market? The market is not free, a typical person has no choice in insurance what so ever. You work at XYZ you get ABC insurance. You deductible is X. You work for DEF you get GHI insurance and your deductible is 2X. What exactly is free? The insurers are free to raise prices without reducing demand? That's not a free market.

So you can only get insurance through your employer?

You can only get affordable health insurance through your employer. Guess what though? That's an incentive to actually work for a living!

[Fartsniffage]

You can only get affordable health insurance through your employer. Guess what though? That's an incentive to actually work for a living!

But you can get insurance outside your employer?

[Jello Biafra]

How else would they get it? You don't actually think that eliminating employer-provided insurance would mean employers would pay more in wages, do you?

How else? How about they choose what coverage they want? Based on whatever factors they deem important to them.

I'm fine with that, as long as my employer is paying for it.

You realize that employer provided insurance started as a way for businesses to attract talent when wages were control, right?

And how about now? Why do employers offer it now?

[Greed and Death]

You can only get affordable health insurance through your employer. Guess what though? That's an incentive to actually work for a living!

But you can get insurance outside your employer?

Or pay for your own health care.

[Greed and Death]

How else? How about they choose what coverage they want? Based on whatever factors they deem important to them.

I'm fine with that, as long as my employer is paying for it.

You realize that employer provided insurance started as a way for businesses to attract talent when wages were control, right?

And how about now? Why do employers offer it now?

A way to avoid income tax and fica.

[Zephie]

Well democrats, like in history, have always been a fan of slavery. Whether it's forcing someone to pick cotton, forcing someone to pay for somebody else's food and housing, or saying they have a right to a medical professional's labor.

Yes, god forbid I was force to work for the average NHS GP salary in the UK.

I don't know how I'd make ends meet on £120,000 a year.

Guess who's paying them? I was remarking the blind people who call health care a "right"

[Fartsniffage]

Or pay for your own health care.

So the system is freer and has access to much greater economies of scale for private treatment than the single payer systems yet is still more expensive and not as good.

Where is that free market fairy?