Why is health care a business?

[Sungai Pusat]

Because Russia and China used the same system that universal healthcare in the west does: Socialism. China's doing better to rid itself of Socialism, but Russia's not doing so great on it.

And they are rich first world nations?

Well, no. But the same economics apply too there to USA. USA may be rich, but it attributes its wealth to a tax level that is still not too ridiculous. Unfortunately, with universal healthcare, taxes will have to skyrocket.

[Sibirsky]

The minimum level of service for the maximum charge the market will stand?

I'm not sure I would want healthcare run on those lines.

This.

Corporations are required to care about their bottom line. The state isn't.

So lets bankrupt it....

[Sibirsky]

What the fuck does that have to do with modern western universal healthcare systems?

In Soviet Russia You provide medical services to the doctor.

[Chrobalta]

So lets bankrupt it....

No need. There are plenty of rich people to tax.

[Fartsniffage]

Depends on how much you make.
the UK their tax comes to 11% per person. So anyone making over 58,000 pays more.

No it doesn't. NI is about 12% and it covers healthcare, state pension and unemplyment benefits in theory.

[Sibirsky]

Name one.

The Military. The Fire Departments.

Shipping bolts to Iraq for $1 million is efficient? You know houses burn down all the time.

[Fartsniffage]

Well, no. But the same economics apply too there to USA. USA may be rich, but it attributes its wealth to a tax level that is still not too ridiculous. Unfortunately, with universal healthcare, taxes will have to skyrocket.

Why? Taking into account state, federal and sales taxes we pay about the same as you.

[Sibirsky]

They would cover anybody. In any state. And there would be plenty of them. Not 2 per state that control 78% of the market.

Why would their be plenty? In a functioning market, there are winners and losers.

There are more than 2 winners per state. In an average state 2 insurers have 78% of the market.

[Sibirsky]

Any good or service being provided in a free market system.

That's not a source.

Provide me a source of the government providing a better good or service than businesses competing in a free market.

[Trippoli]

The Military. The Fire Departments.

You know houses burn down all the time.

Shit happens.

[Fartsniffage]

Yet that's what creates the best products. Competition drives quality up, and prices down.

You'd think so wouldn't you?

So why doesn't the US have the best healthcare system in the western world?

[Sibirsky]

Anything you can provide. Maybe both, or is that not possible?

Its Politics. What goes in never comes out as youd like it. Just dismissing all government programs on that fact gets us nowhere, and doesn't fix a need.

Neither do the government programs.

[Sibirsky]

So you support slavery? You support the dentist working on your father's teeth for free. You also support the manufacturers of the dentist's equipment to be slaves, so the dentist has something to use when working on teeth.

I'm leaving.

Bye

[Sibirsky]

For the overwhelming majority of people. Everyone eats, everyone has clothes and shelter. Yes, we do have shelters, section 8 housing, and soup kitchens. There are better ways to provide for the very poor. But more people would be able to afford their own coverage. Ideally catastrophic coverage coupled with HSAs, but I don't see why comprehensive coverage would not be available.

So the average $6,328 for family is cheaper than Universal Healthcares tax rises?

Is that the US average? You're forgetting one important fact. The US does not have a free market in healthcare. The cost would be lower than it is today.

[Greed and Death]

Depends on how much you make.
the UK their tax comes to 11% per person. So anyone making over 58,000 pays more.

No it doesn't. NI is about 12% and it covers healthcare, state pension and unemplyment benefits in theory.

Wow we already have 15% for pension and unemployment benefits, and social security is expected to be bankrupt in about 30 years. I think there is something with American government that makes it more inefficient with these services.

[Fartsniffage]

So the average $6,328 for family is cheaper than Universal Healthcares tax rises?

Is that the US average? You're forgetting one important fact. The US does not have a free market in healthcare. The cost would be lower than it is today.

It has a freer market than the single payer countries so why isn't it cheaper than them?

[Sibirsky]

So you support slavery? You support the dentist working on your father's teeth for free. You also support the manufacturers of the dentist's equipment to be slaves, so the dentist has something to use when working on teeth.

Strawman much?

I think it is pretty obvious he meant that the state should pick up the tab. Not that dentists should be forced to work without being compensated themselves.

I was given hell by one of the leftists for referring to "free phones". What goes around comes around.

[Fartsniffage]

Wow we already have 15% for pension and unemployment benefits, and social security is expected to be bankrupt in about 30 years. I think there is something with American government that makes it more inefficient with these services.

"In theory" is important. They all go into the same pot.

Still, we pay about the same amount of tax over all.

[Trippoli]

That's not a source.

Provide me a source of the government providing a better good or service than businesses competing in a free market.

United States Postal Service, a cheap service, and is a pretty good one too. In fact, people think it has a unfair advantage over private services: http://www.postmasters.org/legislation/ ... s/1_14.pdf

[Sibirsky]

So lets bankrupt it....

No need. There are plenty of rich people to tax.

No there aren't. They will leave for better places. Better for their incomes, businesses and taxes.

[DaWoad]

for the second time...
Erm, when you say affordable, who do you mean for, and what exactly do you mean by affordable?

For the overwhelming majority of people. There will be a few genuinely poor that would not be able to afford it no matter how much it costs. They will be taken care of by non-profits.

Let's take a deep breath and look at reality for a second shall we?
1 for a business to work in a free market system it has to make money
2 every time an insurance company pays for treatment that costs money (often a lot of money)
3 thus the minimum amount an insurance company can charge is based on a rather simply statistical calculation where one takes into account the odds of a person getting sick, how much that will cost the company and then you work out what you must charge each person to make slightly more than you will lose.
4 poor people tend to get sick more often than middle class folks who tend to get sick more often than rich folks ( a function of the environment in which one lives job stress etc.)
5 therefor it is almost impossible to cover the poor affordably and also make a profit without cutting services somehow

[Jello Biafra]

Through their places of employment?

Yes. It's idiotic. If you switch jobs, or move to another state, you have to switch insurance carriers. Neither one has anything to do with insurance.

And the tax penalty for those that want to buy their own.

How else would they get it? You don't actually think that eliminating employer-provided insurance would mean employers would pay more in wages, do you?

[Sibirsky]

Yet that's what creates the best products. Competition drives quality up, and prices down.

You'd think so wouldn't you?

So why doesn't the US have the best healthcare system in the western world?

It does. If you can get it, it's top notch. Better than Europe's. And Japan's.

The problem is cost. Access is somewhat of a problem, predominately because of cost. Cost is a problem because there is no free market in US healthcare.

[Sungai Pusat]

Well, no. But the same economics apply too there to USA. USA may be rich, but it attributes its wealth to a tax level that is still not too ridiculous. Unfortunately, with universal healthcare, taxes will have to skyrocket.

Why? Taking into account state, federal and sales taxes we pay about the same as you.

Oh, OK.

USA: Taxed out on $4.536 trillion
GDP: $14.545 trillion
Percentage Taxed: 31.2%

Source

Nope, in Singapore, the single, and those without children, are subjected to only a 5% income tax. If you add all of the taxes up, they become 7% of a person's income.

[Greed and Death]

Is that the US average? You're forgetting one important fact. The US does not have a free market in healthcare. The cost would be lower than it is today.

It has a freer market than the single payer countries so why isn't it cheaper than them?

Have you eliminated other factors ? population density ? The inability to sue doctors in the UK (if my understanding of them being government employees and sovereign immunity is correct)?