One China or Free Taiwan?

[Benuty]

Which is simply a logical conclusion of the odds of ROC being able to retake the mainland becoming virtually zero, perhaps after the 70s or so. Becoming Taiwan plus a few odd islands is merely the natural conclusion if they prefer to continue their existence. The issue of PRC is more complicated than many in this thread made it out to be, but basically its threat prevent any change of ROC's legal status.

aye.

I expect that they will eventually be absorbed by the mainland but with luck that will be at least 50 years down the road

I don't expect so they have been democratized since the 1980s, and are sure as hell not going to be giving that up from the look of it. Not in exchange for some enforced pseudo-democracy to the likes of Hong Kong.

[Dytarma]

At first I thought if this was about the US recognizing the Republic of Lakotah.

[Tuthina]

aye.

I expect that they will eventually be absorbed by the mainland but with luck that will be at least 50 years down the road

I don't expect so they have been democratized since the 1980s, and are sure as hell not going to be giving that up from the look of it. Not in exchange for some enforced pseudo-democracy to the likes of Hong Kong.

To be fair, ROC does have an existing democratic system, while Hong Kong only has the colonial system to work from. If anything, UK is about as guilty about Hong Kong's current system as PRC.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Why not? Just as long as you acknowledge the ten ton China in the room

[Greater Istanistan]

I love this. When you ask Americans if Israel should exist and Palestine, and they say that Palestine shouldn't because the lost the war. Then with China, it's the RoC not the PRC, despite them losing a far more fair fight...

Palestine shouldn't because Palestine was created by Hajj amin al-Husseini specifically to start a war with the purpose of ethnically cleansing the Jews, which the Palestinians then lost and for decades have used suicide bombings, shootings, and stabbings against random Israeli civilians in an attempt to claim roughly a fifth of Israel's territory, much of which isn't even Palestinian majority and some of which, even being Arab, still has a population that prefers to be part of Israel, and the governments of all Palestinian presidents have denied a two-state solution proposal.

The Republic of China (Taiwan), meanwhile, predates the PRoC, has not responded to their loss of a war by using terrorism against random mainland Chinese civilians, and for the most part just want to be independent on their own little 36,000 kilometer Island that takes up less than a percent of China's total claimed land of 9,619,449 kilometers.

Friendly reminder that American regime change is usually executed with dubious competence even in weak third-world nations, and that anyone expecting to be able to pull it off against America's greatest geopolitical foe is completely delusional as to its functionality. America not only lacks the resources and manpower to sustain it, but it also lacks the basic competence. Remember how badly Iraq went? Iraq has 38 million people and was ideologically shaky to the extreme before the invasion took place. China is a country of 1.2 billion with a proud history, a definite sense of place in the world (it's not the Middle Kingdom for nothing), and a strong nationalist sentiment. More to the point, they've already been there and done that with the Western powers trying to overthrow the government. Any attempts to actually force change in government, or even assert RoC control over the whole country, is doomed to fail in a horrible and bloody way.

The difference being that Iraq's economy wasn't completely dependent on America. If China goes to war with America, America will stop trading with China, and China will collapse as a result.

First, the American-led sanctions regime actually did kill the Iraqi economy, along with hundreds of thousands of Iraqi people. Second, assuming that America wouldn't be hurt just as hard as all those cheap imports disappear and global supply chains break down left right and centre is extremely wishful thinking. Add to that the ensuing pan-Pacific brawl (particularly in the South China Sea) and its complete annihilation of safe American trade with Southeast Asia and India and you've got a complete bloody nightmare for American economics even if they somehow win. Let's also consider that the actual American war effort would hardly be an inexpensive thing, as their only winning strategy would be an offensive against China. The Chinese clearly wouldn't give up just because they lost some sea battles - in order to actually strike a death-blow, the American government would need to carry out mass aerial and land assaults along the Chinese coast against major population centres. The sheer expense of that would be crippling. From an economic standpoint, the United States of America just can't afford full-on war any more than the Chinese can. Assuming we're still in the regime change ballpark, the occupation afterwards would be a total nightmare. Iraq cost between one and two trillion dollars to pseudo-pacify, right? If the United States wants to actually build a democratic government amidst an exceptionally hostile populace, it'll take entire orders of magnitude more than that. With an American economy already reeling from loss of trade, you can guess at exactly what that would do to the USA. That's not even the worst of it - consider the refugees. A full-scale US Marine assault on Shanghai or Beijing against determined PLA resistance would literally displace millions, if not tens of millions, of people. Beyond the mass internal displacement, the masses of embittered Chinese refugees streaming into Southeast Asia, Russia, India, and Japan would make Syria look like a total joke and result in a complete humanitarian collapse that the US would be at least partially responsible for dealing with because it, in this hypothetical scenario, decided to fight a war with China.

In other words, any attempt to replace the Chinese government with US military efforts is myopic and would permanently end American hegemony in the same way that taking on Germany ended England.

[Cetacea]

I'm not sure why we need two threads on this exact same topic but as I said in the other thread

the PRC and the RoC should both piss off - Taiwan is Taiwan and it belongs to the Taiwanese.

Taiwan is not and has NEVER been China. The Chinese who went there after 1661 (both Koxinga and later the Kuomintang) were refugees fleeing defeat in their own country. Being the closest port for fleeing refugees is the only claim that China has to Taiwan

The Republic of Taiwan is the only legitimate claimant to Taiwan and anything else is just wanker politics.

I expect the status quo will remain

There is, and never will be a republic of Taiwan. You think the people in Taiwan are electing the president of Taiwan?

No they are electing the president of the Republic of China. The ROC cannot piss off when it is the sole legitimate government of Taiwan.

if Burma, Siam and Peking can change their names then so can the RoC

and yes the Taiwanese I know were voting for a Taiwanese president not a Chinese one. Tsai Ing-wen is part indigenous (Paiwan) and according to the last set of polls done May 2016 - 80% of the citizens of Taiwan self-identified as Taiwanese, compared with only 8.1% who identified themselves as Chinese and 7.6% who identified as both.

Taiwanese identity is stronger than ever to the point that many get pissed off others insist that they are Chinese

http://thediplomat.com/2016/06/the-evol ... -identity/

[Genivaria]

Nope, it is about Trump.

Everything is about Trump. Trump is everywhere. you cant stump the trump

And on the subject, I believe Taiwan should be a country. It's the descendant of the actual republic of China, the non-Communist rebel China.

Technically the communists were the 'rebels' if we go by size, at least initially.

[Tuthina]

There is, and never will be a republic of Taiwan. You think the people in Taiwan are electing the president of Taiwan?

No they are electing the president of the Republic of China. The ROC cannot piss off when it is the sole legitimate government of Taiwan.

if Burma, Siam and Peking can change their names then so can the RoC

and yes the Taiwanese I know were voting for a Taiwanese president not a Chinese one. Tsai Ing-wen is part indigenous (Paiwan) and according to the last set of polls done May 2016 - 80% the citizens of Taiwan self-identified as Taiwanese, compared with only 8.1% who identified themselves as Chinese and 7.6% who identified as both.

Taiwanese identity is stronger than ever to the point that many get pissed off others insist that they are Chinese

http://thediplomat.com/2016/06/the-evol ... -identity/

Neither Berma nor Peking actually changed their original names. It is mostly a quirk of different romanisation scheme.

[Lady Scylla]

Recognise it as Taiwan, since it's had de facto status as its own country for decades now. Just call it the Republic of Taiwan, and the People's Republic of China.

[Senkaku]

Recognise it as Taiwan, since it's had de facto status as its own country for decades now. Just call it the Republic of Taiwan, and the People's Republic of China.

"And that's how World War Three began, kids!"

[Teemant]

I think that United States should recognize Taiwan because they are democratic and want to be an independent state. One China policy is just wrong and even insulting to people who live in Taiwan because we can't pretend that Taiwan doesn't exist.

[StarArmy]

Both China and Taiwan need to admit that Taiwan is a nation. In other words, Taiwan must stop claiming to be China and to have rights to all of China's territory, and China must stop claiming that Taiwan is part of its territory. Live and let live.

Once that is settled, the United States can recognize both as the countries they actually already are.

[Tuthina]

Both China and Taiwan need to admit that Taiwan is a nation. In other words, Taiwan must stop claiming to be China and to have rights to all of China's territory, and China must stop claiming that Taiwan is part of its territory. Live and let live.

Once that is settled, the United States can recognize both as the countries they actually already are.

Just because the Republic of China is de facto independent does not mean PRC should stop claiming that it is part of its territory. The world for the most part does not work by simply getting over decades, if not centuries of conflict and expect everyone to just say kumbaya.

I think that United States should recognize Taiwan because they are democratic and want to be an independent state. One China policy is just wrong and even insulting to people who live in Taiwan because we can't pretend that Taiwan doesn't exist.

You mean the policy that was first initiated by the Republic of China, the polity that now currently control Taiwan and several other islands?

[Rio Cana]

aye.

I expect that they will eventually be absorbed by the mainland but with luck that will be at least 50 years down the road

I don't expect so they have been democratized since the 1980s, and are sure as hell not going to be giving that up from the look of it. Not in exchange for some enforced pseudo-democracy to the likes of Hong Kong.

But even some in Hong Kong are trying to change things. Found this video from this month on the Chinese 20 year old who has gotten on the bad side of the PRC government when it comes to Hong Kong - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCQAeNXadCE

[Bears Armed]

I think Taiwan should only be recognized as a rebel province of China.

As its current government is a legal successor to the Kuomintang government there, and the Kuomintang government was formerly the government for ALL of China, technically it's the PRC that consists of [a collection of] "rebel provinces".

[Aethrys]

Sounds like a move that would not benefit US foreign policy in the slightest.

[Crockerland]

Everything is about Trump. Trump is everywhere. you cant stump the trump

And on the subject, I believe Taiwan should be a country. It's the descendant of the actual republic of China, the non-Communist rebel China.

Technically the communists were the 'rebels' if we go by size, at least initially.

Presumably "non-Communist rebel China" refers to the rebels of the Xinhai revolution, not the Communist revolution.

[Chessmistress]

Voted "Independent Taiwan".
There's no reason for a forced assimilation within PRC, it would be simply unfair.

[Igoria]

The RoC, the true name of Taiwan, is the true government of china. The PRC is a rebel force in control of ROC territory.

Nah mate, Puyi was the last true government of China. After that it was fair game.

[Farnhamia]

As some of you may know. The situation between Taiwan and the US is a bit complex. Jimmy Carter's administration made it clear that the Peoples Republic of China would be the sole entity of China to be officially recognized by the US government. Nevertheless, the US does maintain unofficial relations with the "people of Taiwan." If such relations were to be made official the United States could either recognize Taiwan as the sole legitamate China, or as an independent sovereign nation. Both moves would be expected to anger Beijing, who has not ruled out the potential of armed invasion of Taiwan, which it believes to belong to the PRC. An alternative would be the current policy that attempts to stabilize the region by appeasing to the PRC whilst still assisting the people of Taiwan. Finally, the US can cut all ties with Taiwan all together.

Any opinions on the matter?

I fully believe that the US should Recognize Taiwan as its own sovereign nation. This will strain PRC and US relations, but I find that the ROC is deserving of recognition as a free state, and that its citizens should have the right to self rule.

Merged with the older thread on this topic.

[New Astergea]

Taiwan deserves independence. It can fully sustain itself in its well-functioning Democracy IF only a few parties that weren't so Pro-Beijing interfered so often. As for Hong Kong,and Macau if you'd like to add,their 'lease' is about to end soon,2047 if I remember correctly. Hong Kong can be 'apart of' China but it NEEDS to be recognized as a sovereign nation of its own. Why? It has its own system of governance,its own currency and even its own national military. Plus,Hong Kong has shown such great progress in incorruptibility,sitting with Singapore in the top ranks. Democracy will not fail in Hong Kong unless of course a bunch of 'hooligans' with masks show up and start violently beating people ONLY SO that 'Global Times' and 'Xin Hua' can report how "inefficient democracy can be just look at this protest!"

NO ONE wants to see a second Tiannamen Square Massacre anyway. And state-run Global Times and Xin Hua should prooooooooobably look into China's illegal black market organ trading before trying to sound like experts on how to run a country with a gun pointed to their heads.

[New Astergea]

I don't expect so they have been democratized since the 1980s, and are sure as hell not going to be giving that up from the look of it. Not in exchange for some enforced pseudo-democracy to the likes of Hong Kong.

But even some in Hong Kong are trying to change things. Found this video from this month on the Chinese 20 year old who has gotten on the bad side of the PRC government when it comes to Hong Kong - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCQAeNXadCE

yeboi fellow China Uncensored viewer. So far,Chris has been the only good source of material for finding bout' China. The 'bias' is also very satirical. What's there not to like about China anyway? "Oooh la loo de sea belongs to us cos our name is in it" says the PRC whilst deploying nuclear submarines in the Indian Ocean :')

[Senkaku]

The RoC, the true name of Taiwan, is the true government of china. The PRC is a rebel force in control of ROC territory.

Nah mate, Puyi was the last true government of China. After that it was fair game.

The Manchus were just a foreign occupying force from Manchuria, restore Ming dynasty when

[Ethel mermania]

China is not our friend, I am OK with starting to match the hardball they plau with with us. One of the reasons i like trumps call to the roc. If not, let's cut our losses and get out now, no point in pretending we will do something when the whole planet knows we will not.

[Chessmistress]

Sounds like a move that would not benefit US foreign policy in the slightest.

It depends.
A wise politician could use the threat to recognise Taiwan to have bargain power with PRC.