One China or Free Taiwan?

[Yugoslav Memes]

more like the neighbouring kid stole china's shit

The ROC really fell when the Sino-Japanese wars happened.

"wars"

the roc only saw the second one

China being a unified entity is quite baffling as a concept.

applying western pov analysis to everything is quite baffling as a concept

[New Chalcedon]

I've noticed the overwhelming support for Taiwanese independence in the polls.
If China were not communist, it would be the reverse.

Evidence, please? Given the significant left-wing leanings of NSG as an aggregate, I find it hard to imagine that we'd be predisposed to hate the government in Peking on principle.

I think you'll find that most NSGers support de jure Taiwanese independence for much the same reason most of us support continued British rule over the Falkland Islands - popular sovereignty. The people of Taiwan are enjoying a stable, democratic form of government, with peaceful, regular transitions of power as political groupings gain and lose popular support. Given such a system of governance (and the civil society required to support it), I could trust a Taiwanese-run, properly scrutinized referendum to ask the people of Taiwan whether they'd prefer to continue being "The Republic of China" in exile, or to instead say, "We're independent. We've been independent for over 50 years, and it's time everyone - including us - recognized that fact." I think that - barring a truly massive scare campaign by Peking and its local proxies - a solid majority of Taiwanese will favour full independence, given that over 4/5 of Taiwanese don't see themselves as Chinese.

Frankly, Peking needs to realize that it's onto a loser here, and cut its losses - China's "historical claim" to Taiwan/Formosa is there but arguable, the populace in any case do not want to live under Communist rule and the United States of America is prepared to stand guarantor for the freedom of said populace to live under the system they prefer. Grumble about it, de jure recognize their de facto independence and be happy that this means that the Chinese Civil War has finally come to an official conclusion, with them as the undisputed winners, in charge of a large, powerful and dynamic country. Then let's all get on with business, rather than chewing old bones which lost the last of their meat a generation ago.

[Trotskylvania]

If I may ask those 3 people who voted "Other", what do you think Taiwan should be? Cant really think of plausible other option

As a person who voted other. Taiwan should be called its rightful name the Republic of China, it should be recognized as the true government of china and he USA and its allies should work to restore China back to its true government, the ROC

The Kuomintang lost the civil war because they were a corrupt kleptocracy led by a an increasingly out of touch strongman. The only thing that the modern Taiwanese government has in common with the civil war era Republic of China is the name.

The Republic of China was a totalitarian one-party state throughout its entire pre-exile history. The Kuomintang itself was consciously modeled by Sun Yat-sen on the Leninist vanguard party model. The KMT was explicitly socialist in its politics from its birth, and it remained a strong force in the party even under Chiang's leadership prior to the exile.

They lose for a reason, and its largely because most Chinese people didn't think they were carrying the legacy of the revolution forward. In 1949, the CPC simply seemed like another flavor of Sun Yat-sen's politics, and one not associated with the corruption that Chiang's regime became known for.

[USS Monitor]

I've noticed the overwhelming support for Taiwanese independence in the polls.
If China were not communist, it would be the reverse.

Evidence, please? Given the significant left-wing leanings of NSG as an aggregate, I find it hard to imagine that we'd be predisposed to hate the government in Peking on principle.

PRC isn't really left-wing these days, and it certainly isn't liberal. Most of NS leans more toward liberalism, not authoritarian-left.

[Ethel mermania]

I've noticed the overwhelming support for Taiwanese independence in the polls.
If China were not communist, it would be the reverse.

Evidence, please? Given the significant left-wing leanings of NSG as an aggregate, I find it hard to imagine that we'd be predisposed to hate the government in Peking on principle.

I think you'll find that most NSGers support de jure Taiwanese independence for much the same reason most of us support continued British rule over the Falkland Islands - popular sovereignty. The people of Taiwan are enjoying a stable, democratic form of government, with peaceful, regular transitions of power as political groupings gain and lose popular support. Given such a system of governance (and the civil society required to support it), I could trust a Taiwanese-run, properly scrutinized referendum to ask the people of Taiwan whether they'd prefer to continue being "The Republic of China" in exile, or to instead say, "We're independent. We've been independent for over 50 years, and it's time everyone - including us - recognized that fact." I think that - barring a truly massive scare campaign by Peking and its local proxies - a solid majority of Taiwanese will favour full independence, given that over 4/5 of Taiwanese don't see themselves as Chinese.

Frankly, Peking needs to realize that it's onto a loser here, and cut its losses - China's "historical claim" to Taiwan/Formosa is there but arguable, the populace in any case do not want to live under Communist rule and the United States of America is prepared to stand guarantor for the freedom of said populace to live under the system they prefer. Grumble about it, de jure recognize their de facto independence and be happy that this means that the Chinese Civil War has finally come to an official conclusion, with them as the undisputed winners, in charge of a large, powerful and dynamic country. Then let's all get on with business, rather than chewing old bones which lost the last of their meat a generation ago.

The people of Hong Kong did not want to go back. So I am not so sure the PRc sees this as a losing fight. I do think they are a lot more patient than we are.

That said I do agree with the premise of an amicable divorce, but I don't think the PRC will allow it.

[Dwalin]

That indeed comes as a suprise to me. Would you mind providing me with a source for it?
In any way, my point still stands though, there cannot be a free Taiwain as long as it claims all of China or even claims to be China.

"At the same time, Hu and the PRC continued a military missile buildup across the strait from Taiwan while making threats of military action against Taiwan should it declare independence or if the PRC considers that all possibilities for a peaceful unification are completely exhausted. ^[1]"

Thank you.

[Tuthina]

I've noticed the overwhelming support for Taiwanese independence in the polls.
If China were not communist, it would be the reverse.

Evidence, please? Given the significant left-wing leanings of NSG as an aggregate, I find it hard to imagine that we'd be predisposed to hate the government in Peking on principle.

I think you'll find that most NSGers support de jure Taiwanese independence for much the same reason most of us support continued British rule over the Falkland Islands - popular sovereignty. The people of Taiwan are enjoying a stable, democratic form of government, with peaceful, regular transitions of power as political groupings gain and lose popular support. Given such a system of governance (and the civil society required to support it), I could trust a Taiwanese-run, properly scrutinized referendum to ask the people of Taiwan whether they'd prefer to continue being "The Republic of China" in exile, or to instead say, "We're independent. We've been independent for over 50 years, and it's time everyone - including us - recognized that fact." I think that - barring a truly massive scare campaign by Peking and its local proxies - a solid majority of Taiwanese will favour full independence, given that over 4/5 of Taiwanese don't see themselves as Chinese.

Frankly, Peking needs to realize that it's onto a loser here, and cut its losses - China's "historical claim" to Taiwan/Formosa is there but arguable, the populace in any case do not want to live under Communist rule and the United States of America is prepared to stand guarantor for the freedom of said populace to live under the system they prefer. Grumble about it, de jure recognize their de facto independence and be happy that this means that the Chinese Civil War has finally come to an official conclusion, with them as the undisputed winners, in charge of a large, powerful and dynamic country. Then let's all get on with business, rather than chewing old bones which lost the last of their meat a generation ago.

Considering how well all previous referenda held in ROC ended up, I would not really share your enthusiasm regarding such a referendum actually being valid, even if we assume PRC would not respond to it whatsoever.

As for PRC's claim on Taiwan and other territories currently held by ROC, I think a continuous issue that have been observed in this thread and other related threads in general, is that the vast majority of posters might not be aware of the motivations behind PRC's seemingly incessant claim over the contested islands. To overly simplify the situation, (modern) Chinese nationalism is heavily rooted in the idea of solidarity, the notion that the Chinese nation, itself a collection of various nations within China instead of how it is commonly defined in European and perhaps American political landscape, need to band together in order to stand a chance against foreign imperialism, be it from European colonisers or Japanese aggressors.

It should be noted that because of this seemingly circular reasoning, the Chinese nation is defined by polities that are within China. In the contemporary sense, it means PRC and ROC, the two participants of the technically unresolved Chinese civil war. The fact that the vast majority of territory held by ROC, namely Taiwan, was previous colonised by Japan as its first perceived incursion into Chinese soil did not help either. In many ways, Taiwan itself stand as a reminder of the Century of Humiliation that foreign powers had imposed upon China at its moment of weakness. Now, with PRC recovering from it as a rising, albeit unstable power, Taiwan soon become the focal point of Chinese nationalism and revanchism: recovering Taiwan under the banner of China fulfils the void of the collective Chinese psyche.

Is that rational? No, but seldom, if ever, is nationalism in general, and humans are not always rational beings. What that entails is that the nationalist notion of China towards Taiwan cannot really be solved by simply saying that it is wrong - regardless of what "wrong" means. In some senses, having foreigners, many of who successor states or the very states that have oppressed China in the past century, telling PRC should "get with the time" and "get on with business" probably triggers the collective memory of how colonial powers attempt to reshape China in their image.

Is PRC to blame for inciting nationalist sentiment of its inhabitants, certainly. However, popular sentiment is not a simple switch that the seemingly omnipotent state organ can just turn on and off at will. In many ways, PRC government itself is barely escaping the monster it created - even if the leadership of PRC is willing to renounce its claim on current ROC territory, it is quite likely to result in major resurrection that threatens the stability and prosperity, if not the very survival of PRC itself. Combine that with the basic sense of self-preservation, as well as the concept of solidarity in Chinese psyche, meaning that it is difficult to estimate how far PRC would go to prevent having to renounce the claim - but it is quite certain that the price will be very high, and it is highly unlikely that Taiwan in its current form would survive.