One China or Free Taiwan?

[Tuthina]

I've noticed the overwhelming support for Taiwanese independence in the polls.
If China were not communist, it would be the reverse.

Probably a good proof that most people in NS should not be entrusted with authority of any significant kind, considering the ramification of how many suggest to further that particular agenda.

[Yugoslav Memes]

Taiwanese invasion of China is essential the KMT shall rise again.

Without foreign support, that is impossible.

And if anyone outside has a hand in Guoguang 2.0 which, assuming it somehow miraculously succeeds, the new government will hardly be one of the local people's will either.

[Herskerstad]

I've noticed the overwhelming support for Taiwanese independence in the polls.
If China were not communist, it would be the reverse.

That would then go into an argument more about a populations right to self governance if they so would want it. Same kind of deal with Spain and Catalonia.

As far as I am concerned, I am optimistic about China given their youth, but, Xi and his autocratic power-play coupled with these new credit for loyalty system needs are entirely Orwellian aspects that China would do well without.

[Herskerstad]

Taiwanese invasion of China is essential the KMT shall rise again.

Neither desirable nor good. Particularly Chiang's complete perversion of the three people principle. Let alone the nuclear option that would come to use during such a scenario.

No, one of the key powers of democracy has always been it granting opportunity for spread of goods and ideas better than any other system, and if the PRC goes full Orwellian, then I doubt the communist party will escape the public discontent such would bring.

[Tuthina]

Taiwanese invasion of China is essential the KMT shall rise again.

Neither desirable nor good. Particularly Chiang's complete perversion of the three people principle. Let alone the nuclear option that would come to use during such a scenario.

No, one of the key powers of democracy has always been it granting opportunity for spread of goods and ideas better than any other system, and if the PRC goes full Orwellian, then I doubt the communist party will escape the public discontent such would bring.

Depends a lot on how well their bread and circuses are doing, really. Most people do not mind totalitarianism much if they generally have little to gain and a lot to lost.

[Great Nepal]

It should be independent and China should recognize its independence; practically however given China isn't going to do that, it is far better to maintain official relations with China, maintain unofficial ones with Taiwan while ensuring China doesn't invade Taiwan through force presence in the region and diplomatic pressure rather than recognizing Taiwan and screwing relations with much more important power.

I've noticed the overwhelming support for Taiwanese independence in the polls.
If China were not communist, it would be the reverse.

...China is communist?

[Yugoslav Memes]

I've noticed the overwhelming support for Taiwanese independence in the polls.
If China were not communist, it would be the reverse.

...China is communist?

sadly according to many, yes

[Free Tristania]

I am a strong believer in national self-determination and it seems to me that quite a few Taiwanese are not particularly interested in being with China -- let alone being under a yoke of a tyrannical regime like the one currently ruling Red China. So independence is the way forward. The same should be extended to Macao, Hong Kong, Tibet and East Turkestan.

[Yugoslav Memes]

I am a strong believer in national self-determination and it seems to me that quite a few Taiwanese are not particularly interested in being with China -- let alone being under a yoke of a tyrannical regime like the one currently ruling Red China. So independence is the way forward. The same should be extended to Macao, Hong Kong, Tibet and East Turkestan.

Japanese rule and February 28 did fuck them over tho

[Wolfenium]

I've noticed the overwhelming support for Taiwanese independence in the polls.
If China were not communist, it would be the reverse.

That kind of depends. If China isn't a totalitarian state with a huge army that answers to the ruling party (as opposed to the country directly), it'll probably knock a significant chunk of votes off the pro-independence camp. But other issues regarding Taiwanese independence, particularly those of concern to indigenous peoples and those that settled prior to the Kuomintang's exodus, won't change just because the CCP mysteriously gives up dictatorial powers for an elected democracy.

That said, I rate in order of preference (from most to least): 'Restoration of the Republic of China', 'Taiwanese Independence' and 'One China, Two Systems-for-a-limited-period-until-we-can-make-it-One China, One System'. Bad news is, that is also, in ascending order, the order of likelihood of said event happening, with One Communist China being the definitive reality-to-be barring more curveballs thrown our way, and it is something we will have to work with.

[-United States of America]

Taiwan must be independent. Look, Taiwan has its own currency like The "New Taiwan Dollar" and its own Government, Its Own Flag and Its not yet officialy Part of The People's republic of China, So it should be a Democratic Free Nation. But The Kuomintang Forces Suck in 1949. They should produced more ships, U-Boats and Aircrafts to Counter Force Mao and its Army. Bad luck for the RoC.

[Yugoslav Memes]

But The Kuomintang Forces Suck in 1949. They should produced more ships, U-Boats and Aircrafts to Counter Force Mao and its Army. Bad luck for the RoC.

>chiang had sufficient industry to do all that

[Lhagatse]

Irrelevant because they don't and won't precisely due to the same atrocities for which we condemn ISIS and regard it as a moral anathema. Also, ISIS doesn't have its own national identity, half a century of de-facto independence, or a functional administration.

EDIT: Free Taiwan, and no "China" please.

Should probably at least read the string of quotes before posting, eh?

Not to mention just because they have their own identity does not mean they ought to be independent, or change the status quo despite already having independence.

What makes you believe that I didn't read the string of comments? Just because Crockerland posited his question, that doesn't somehow make his point innately unassilable. Reductio ad absurdum does not make for wholesome arguments. While I understand the point being made, I think the ISIS example is inplying a moral quandary that shouldn't exist.

Crockerland asked whether ISIS should exist with popular support. I'm arguing that his question itself is inherently fallacious on grounds of (a) ISIS is being presented as a distasteful option, implicitly on grounds of shocking human rights abuses and (b) ISIS not actually enjoing domestic support because of said abuses.

The fact of the matter is that the very abuses ISIS perpetuates, that permits it to be presented as the distasteful option, innately precludes it from actually having said support from the populace. ISIS, almost inherently, cannot have the support of the populace save by threat of force. It is an illogical hypothetical that cannot ocurr, and by positing it in a way that forces one to equivicate supporting Taiwan with dupporting ISIS, you're asking a tremendously unfair question.

Asking if he'd support a widely-supported ISIS is not at all like asking if he supports Taiwanese independence. Crockerland was attemtping to undermine his position with an illogical hypothetical. Crockerland's question is like asking a McDonald's frycook if he would torture dogs to death because they do torture dogs at Yulin dog meat festival, and the frycook also works with meat. Clearly ISIS is a very different situation, and to be asked fairly, thq question requires some nuance instead of drawing crude parallels that forces us to endorse a group that engages in ethnic cleansing on sheer hypothetical.

Also, apologies for bad spelling. This was written on a phone. I am currently out.

[Pasong Tirad]

Anyone notice the similarities between Taiwan's situation and Puerto Rico's?

[Wolfenium]

Anyone notice the similarities between Taiwan's situation and Puerto Rico's?

Hardly. Puerto Rico is already part of the US, as a territory, and it's not likely Washington would use force to put down pro-independence sentiment, not even with Trump, I hope.

China neither controls Taiwan nor are they averse to using force to change that.

[Absentius]

We would like Cathay to not be allowed to invade Taiwan, for it shall have dire consequences for the region and the world.

[Uxupox]

Anyone notice the similarities between Taiwan's situation and Puerto Rico's?

Where the hell did you see any similarity?

[Wolfenium]

The Islamic Sharia Republic wishes for a democratic government to rule China and not by a bunch of communist rebels in Beijing or Nationalist Guerrillas in Taipei,instead decided by the people of China.

Uhh... this is the part of the forum where you voice your own views as a real life person, not the views of the nation you're roleplaying as.

[Tuthina]

What makes you believe that I didn't read the string of comments? Just because Crockerland posited his question, that doesn't somehow make his point innately unassilable. Reductio ad absurdum does not make for wholesome arguments. While I understand the point being made, I think the ISIS example is inplying a moral quandary that shouldn't exist.

Crockerland asked whether ISIS should exist with popular support. I'm arguing that his question itself is inherently fallacious on grounds of (a) ISIS is being presented as a distasteful option, implicitly on grounds of shocking human rights abuses and (b) ISIS not actually enjoing domestic support because of said abuses.

The fact of the matter is that the very abuses ISIS perpetuates, that permits it to be presented as the distasteful option, innately precludes it from actually having said support from the populace. ISIS, almost inherently, cannot have the support of the populace save by threat of force. It is an illogical hypothetical that cannot ocurr, and by positing it in a way that forces one to equivicate supporting Taiwan with dupporting ISIS, you're asking a tremendously unfair question.

Asking if he'd support a widely-supported ISIS is not at all like asking if he supports Taiwanese independence. Crockerland was attemtping to undermine his position with an illogical hypothetical. Crockerland's question is like asking a McDonald's frycook if he would torture dogs to death because they do torture dogs at Yulin dog meat festival, and the frycook also works with meat. Clearly ISIS is a very different situation, and to be asked fairly, thq question requires some nuance instead of drawing crude parallels that forces us to endorse a group that engages in ethnic cleansing on sheer hypothetical.

Also, apologies for bad spelling. This was written on a phone. I am currently out.

Except that the original statement of Salandriagado, as you would no doubt notice if you read the entire string of comments, is that popular mandate is the only qualifying factor for whether independence of a polity is permissible. As such, the scenario that, while stretching credibility given the use of the Islamic State, posited by Crockerland would still be a valid question that emphasise on the absurdity of what Crockerland consider to be a badly-justified statement. While it is obviously that the action of the government of Republic of China is nowhere as contemptible as that of Islamic State, the flaw lie not in Salandriagado's stance on Taiwan independence, but the methodology, or lack thereof, of supporting that view. For all we know, Crockerland might as well support "free Taiwan" as much as Salandriagado.

[Victoriala II]

...China is communist?

sadly according to many, yes

>They all still like Mao and all of China is Nanjie

[Victoriala II]

Taiwanese invasion of China is essential the KMT shall rise again.

Lmao try

[Ethel mermania]

I've noticed the overwhelming support for Taiwanese independence in the polls.
If China were not communist, it would be the reverse.

Probably a good proof that most people in NS should not be entrusted with authority of any significant kind, considering the ramification of how many suggest to further that particular agenda.

We will wind up in a war with China eventually, may as well call them now.

[Novus America]

Anyone notice the similarities between Taiwan's situation and Puerto Rico's?

There are none. They are the exact opposite. The US de facto controls Puerto Rico, US troops are in Puerto Rico, (Puerto Rico does have its own military but so do all US states and most other territories), US law applies in Puerto Rico.

The PRC has NO actual authority or control over Taiwan which is already de facto independent. US control over Puerto Rico is real, "One China" is an absurd legal fiction. PRC laws do not apply in Taiwan, PRC troops and law enforcement cannot go to Taiwan.

Also the US has said Puerto Rico can be independent if it wants to be, and regularly along with the local government holds referendum on the matter. Puerto Rico chooses to be part of the US by voting. The PRC on the other hand has said it will never ever under any circumstances allow Taiwan to choose independence, and if Taiwan does the PRC will attack.

Also the US, while not perfect does have open elections, civil and political liberties, things the PRC does not allow. The US is not a dictatorship. The PRC is.

[Thermodolia]

Anyone notice the similarities between Taiwan's situation and Puerto Rico's?

No because there are 0

[Emperyo]

I do have a feeling this is a ploy to root out users who use Chinese propaganda on NS.
Side note: Though I do know full well that the only thing Communist about China is their party.