One China or Free Taiwan?

[Chessmistress]

Nah mate, Puyi was the last true government of China. After that it was fair game.

The Manchus were just a foreign occupying force from Manchuria, restore Ming dynasty when

Indeed.
Ming had been the last true Chinese dynasty.

[Cetacea]

I think Taiwan should only be recognized as a rebel province of China.

As its current government is a legal successor to the Kuomintang government there, and the Kuomintang government was formerly the government for ALL of China, technically it's the PRC that consists of [a collection of] "rebel provinces".

the thing is before 1945 the Kuomintang was NOT the government of Taiwan, the Japanese had been there since 1895 and the RoC only came in 1945 to accept the Japanese surrender on behalf of the Allied Troops resulting in an occupation by the Allied Forces which wasn't concluded until the 1951 Peace Treaty with Japan which the Chinese weren't even invited to. Following the treaty there was a repressive military occupation which was resisted by the Taiwanese as seen in the years of the White Terror 1947 to 1986.

It is only from 1986 that any form of legitimate Taiwanese Government can be measured and by that time any kind of claim to China had become a fiction maintained only by ethnic nationalist.

[Salandriagado]

The people of Taiwan have no desire to be ruled from Beijing. That is the only thing that needs be considered here.

[Crockerland]

The people of Taiwan have no desire to be ruled from Beijing. That is the only thing that needs be considered here.

So if the majority of the people in the Islamic State's control zone support ISIS, you'll be in favor of ISIS independence from Syria and Iraq?

[Chessmistress]

If China would take over Taiwan it's even likely that they would change the formula of Taiwan Beer, and so I couldn't have the proper drink while eating sashimi.
I have to side with Taiwan, then, due personal interests.

[Kubra]

If China would take over Taiwan it's even likely that they would change the formula of Taiwan Beer, and so I couldn't have the proper drink while eating sashimi.
I have to side with Taiwan, then, due personal interests.

aw sashimi pairs best with asahi anyways

[Chessmistress]

If China would take over Taiwan it's even likely that they would change the formula of Taiwan Beer, and so I couldn't have the proper drink while eating sashimi.
I have to side with Taiwan, then, due personal interests.

aw sashimi pairs best with asahi anyways

Have you ever tasted Taiwan Beer?
It's widely regarded as the most appropriate with sashimi, sushi, california rolls, and so on, for a reason: it's flavoured with glutinous rice, and that's why its taste it's the perfect complement to dishes using glutinous rice.

[Napkiraly]

The RoC, the true name of Taiwan, is the true government of china. The PRC is a rebel force in control of ROC territory.

The Chinese civil war ended in 1950


Just sayin'

Both sides have yet to sign a peace treaty or armistice, so legally it is debatable whether it has ended.

[Kubra]

aw sashimi pairs best with asahi anyways

Have you ever tasted Taiwan Beer?
It's widely regarded as the most appropriate with sashimi, sushi, california rolls, and so on, for a reason: it's flavoured with glutinous rice, and that's why its taste it's the perfect complement to dishes using glutinous rice.

Taiwan beer has a bit of sweetness to it. For sushi and sashimi I prefer as dry a beer as possible.

[Salandriagado]

The people of Taiwan have no desire to be ruled from Beijing. That is the only thing that needs be considered here.

So if the majority of the people in the Islamic State's control zone support ISIS, you'll be in favor of ISIS independence from Syria and Iraq?

Yup.

[Uxupox]

The people of Taiwan have no desire to be ruled from Beijing. That is the only thing that needs be considered here.

So if the majority of the people in the Islamic State's control zone support ISIS, you'll be in favor of ISIS independence from Syria and Iraq?

The terrorist state rules all with their mighty and triumphant false Caliph.

[Genivaria]

The people of Taiwan have no desire to be ruled from Beijing. That is the only thing that needs be considered here.

So if the majority of the people in the Islamic State's control zone support ISIS, you'll be in favor of ISIS independence from Syria and Iraq?

What the actual fuck?

[Tuthina]

So if the majority of the people in the Islamic State's control zone support ISIS, you'll be in favor of ISIS independence from Syria and Iraq?

What the actual fuck?

It is not uncommon to exaggerate in order to make a point, the point here probably being that just because the people want independent does not mean they should have it.

[Cetacea]

What the actual fuck?

It is not uncommon to exaggerate in order to make a point, the point here probably being that just because the people want independent does not mean they should have it.

except that the ISIS analogy has absolutely no parallel to Taiwan. Taiwan isn't a terrorist enclave occupying bits of another country and well if people can support Saudi Arabia and a whole slew of other shit oppressive nations than why not a new State in the Levant?

[Tuthina]

It is not uncommon to exaggerate in order to make a point, the point here probably being that just because the people want independent does not mean they should have it.

except that the ISIS analogy has absolutely no parallel to Taiwan. Taiwan isn't a terrorist enclave occupying bits of another country and well if people can support Saudi Arabia and a whole slew of other shit oppressive nations than why not a new State in the Levant?

Well, the original post of this chain of replies do state that the will of the (majority of?) people is the only thing relevant in this topic, so whether Taiwan is ruled by a government that we would consider to be "benign" would not matter under that criterion.

[The Southern Dictators]

Ive only read the first page but I dont see why the USA cant have relations with both.

[Rio Cana]

Some news sources just said that Trump planned this for some time. Seems he had been checking into this for some time. At least the US can find out if the PRC is bluffing when it comes to Taiwan. I think its not a bluff. The PRC government cannot afford to lose when it comes to Taiwan. They politically painted themselves into a corner.

[Ponoxien]

Lose john poor same it case do year we. Full how way even the sigh. Extremely nor furniture fat questions now provision incommode preserved.

[Tuthina]

There is only one China. The PRC and the ROC are part of that one China.

Hello, 92 consensus.

[Crockerland]

So if the majority of the people in the Islamic State's control zone support ISIS, you'll be in favor of ISIS independence from Syria and Iraq?

What the actual fuck?

It is not uncommon to exaggerate in order to make a point, the point here probably being that just because the people want independent does not mean they should have it.

except that the ISIS analogy has absolutely no parallel to Taiwan. Taiwan isn't a terrorist enclave occupying bits of another country and well if people can support Saudi Arabia and a whole slew of other shit oppressive nations than why not a new State in the Levant?

Maybe you should actually read the conversation before trying to add to it. Salandriagado claimed that the only thing that needed to be considered was the will of the majority of people in Taiwan, so Taiwan not being a terrorist enclave occupying bits of another country would, according to Salandriagado, be irrelevant, hence the whole point of my post.

Obviously Taiwan is in no way equivalent to ISIS, that's the entire point of the question, because they are nothing alike, and Salandriagado's method for determining a state's right to secede grants benign democracies like Taiwan and the the control zones of terrorist organizations like the Islamic State, Boko Haram, Hezbollah, etc. the same right to independence; Salandriagado even confirmed that he would support ISIS independence if the majority of IS residents supported it.

So if the majority of the people in the Islamic State's control zone support ISIS, you'll be in favor of ISIS independence from Syria and Iraq?

Yup.

[Neuwland]

Taiwanese invasion of China is essential the KMT shall rise again.

[Cetacea]

What the actual fuck?

except that the ISIS analogy has absolutely no parallel to Taiwan. Taiwan isn't a terrorist enclave occupying bits of another country and well if people can support Saudi Arabia and a whole slew of other shit oppressive nations than why not a new State in the Levant?

Maybe you should actually read the conversation before trying to add to it. Salandriagado claimed that the only thing that needed to be considered was the will of the majority of people in Taiwan, so Taiwan not being a terrorist enclave occupying bits of another country would, according to Salandriagado, be irrelevant, hence the whole point of my post.

Obviously Taiwan is in no way equivalent to ISIS, that's the entire point of the question, because they are nothing alike, and Salandriagado's method for determining a state's right to secede grants benign democracies like Taiwan and the the control zones of terrorist organizations like the Islamic State, Boko Haram, Hezbollah, etc. the same right to independence; Salandriagado even confirmed that he would support ISIS independence if the majority of IS residents supported it.

Yup.

um I did read it and still don't think its valid. This is page 12 of a discussion on Taiwan Nationhood and raising ISIS ignores the fact that ISIS isn't a nation and has no 'people'. I agree with his/her Yes if the majority of people in a nation overwhelmingly want a certain outcome then it should be granted (I stated earlier that 80% of the people of Taiwan consider themselves Taiwanese and that to me is the only criterion)

It would be the same criterion for Daesh - if 80% of the people living in the area they control identify themselves as ISILites and overwhelmingly want to be a state then sure. That doesn't mean Daesh can't still be condemned for human rights abuses and foreign nations can't still attempt exterminate them with extreme prejudice. Saudia Arabia, Iraq, Cuba, Israel even North Korea have a right to exist...

[Lhagatse]

The people of Taiwan have no desire to be ruled from Beijing. That is the only thing that needs be considered here.

So if the majority of the people in the Islamic State's control zone support ISIS, you'll be in favor of ISIS independence from Syria and Iraq?

Irrelevant because they don't and won't precisely due to the same atrocities for which we condemn ISIS and regard it as a moral anathema. Also, ISIS doesn't have its own national identity, half a century of de-facto independence, or a functional administration.

EDIT: Free Taiwan, and no "China" please.

[Tuthina]

So if the majority of the people in the Islamic State's control zone support ISIS, you'll be in favor of ISIS independence from Syria and Iraq?

Irrelevant because they don't and won't precisely due to the same atrocities for which we condemn ISIS and regard it as a moral anathema. Also, ISIS doesn't have its own national identity, half a century of de-facto independence, or a functional administration.

EDIT: Free Taiwan, and no "China" please.

Should probably at least read the string of quotes before posting, eh?

Not to mention just because they have their own identity does not mean they ought to be independent, or change the status quo despite already having independence.

[Emperyo]

I've noticed the overwhelming support for Taiwanese independence in the polls.
If China were not communist, it would be the reverse.