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by Ganonsyoni » Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:21 pm
by Hectania » Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:21 pm
Dushan wrote:Freefall11111 wrote:Whether the Vatican is a country at all is open to debate.
The Vatican is a sovereign and internationally recognized State.
It is also, an Absolute Monarchy.
by Imperial Union of America » Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:23 pm
by Runeria » Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:24 pm
The Lotus Land wrote:Imperial Union of America wrote:I think a Monarchy is good because [...]. Perhaps it would help fight corruption as well.
Ever heard of Spain?Runeria wrote:But maybe countries like Spain and the Netherlands should be hesitant to eliminate their monarchies.
The Spanish monarchy was restored by a fascist dictator, and now it's just a corrupt family getting millions of our tax money for doing nothing, and still some of them are being judged for corruption. It is heavily undemocratic and isn't even good to unite the nation since Catalans and Basques hate it. So, I'll have to disagree with that and proudly say: ¡Viva la República!
by Dushan » Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:31 pm
Ganonsyoni wrote:People who support monarchies are those who see themselves as likely being part of the ruling class and not the peasants breaking their bones and starving half the time to have their grain stolen away from the real "welfare kings and queens".
Hectania wrote:Dushan wrote:
The Vatican is a sovereign and internationally recognized State.
It is also, an Absolute Monarchy.
The Vatican is also a non-hereditary monarchy, but not a democratic one, either. The Vatican is weird.
by Gages Icelandic Army » Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:37 pm
Runeria wrote:Gages Icelandic Army wrote:I'm not cool enough to NS on my phone. I end up ruining my nation by clicking the wrong thing.
Here are some different situations:
Despotic hereditary leader with little role in social life:
Oman, Saudi Arabia
benefits: political, economic, and social stability so long as the state takes care of the people's needs and doesn't treat them too cruelly.
weaknesses: they usually don't take care of the people's needs and treat their subject cruelly.
Despotic hereditary leader with a large role in social life:
Imperial Russia, Imperial Japan, Imperial Austria (these are mostly extinct)
benefits: same as above, plus they can give a degree of sanctity to governance and law that helps with corruption, political violence, etc. (obviously this has the same caveat as the above situation)
weaknesses: same as above, although they do tend to abuse their subjects less than contemporary state in the above category. Think noblesse oblige The USSR under Lenin and Stalin was demonstrably more cruel than the Romanovs had been
Figurehead with no social role
The British and other Western European Monarchies have been headed this way for a while
benefits: could maybe bring in $$$ like the British monarchy does I guess?
weaknesses: does literally nothing except get into tabloid scandals, actually serves to harm the level of political discourse and social trust because it's supposed to be a dignified institution and it isn't
Figurehead with a strong social role
this is what the British, Danish, Dutch, etc. monarchies are in theory
benefits: Enriches the social and cultural life of the nation, provides a small degree of additional political and social stability.
weaknesses: Just weak, weak, weak. Hardly worth the expense (although again, to be fair, potentially profitable).
Best of all Possible Worlds
Glorious Liechtenstein
benefits: Is able to play an active role in governance and law while still being itself subject to the law. Can draw upon public support to overrule and override deadlocked elected officials and, but is still limited in it's authority and thus ability to abuse the rights of ordinary people. Is neither impotent nor all-powerful. Additionally, provides the full culturally enriching and socially stabilizing benefits of the other categories.
weakness: virtue-signalling anti-monarchist ideologues who have drunk of the jacobin kool aid will always cry about it being medieval and barbaric because their priorities are out of wack
weanesses:
by Gages Icelandic Army » Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:45 pm
by Pandeeria » Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:45 pm
Lavochkin wrote:Never got why educated people support communism.
In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???
by Arcturus Novus » Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:48 pm
Nilokeras wrote:there is of course an interesting thread to pull on [...]
Unfortunately we're all forced to participate in whatever baroque humiliation kink the OP has going on instead.
by Dushan » Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:55 pm
Arcturus Novus wrote:Power should not derive from heredity. It should derive from the consent of the governed. That was established in the 17th (18th?) century. Ideally, there should be nobody governing anyone, but if we have to have a leader, I'd rather they be elected.
by The Princes of the Universe » Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:59 pm
Arcturus Novus wrote:Power should not derive from heredity. It should derive from the consent of the governed. That was established in the 17th (18th?) century. Ideally, there should be nobody governing anyone, but if we have to have a leader, I'd rather they be elected.
by Pandeeria » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:00 pm
The Princes of the Universe wrote:Arcturus Novus wrote:Power should not derive from heredity. It should derive from the consent of the governed. That was established in the 17th (18th?) century. Ideally, there should be nobody governing anyone, but if we have to have a leader, I'd rather they be elected.
"The people" are too stupid to be trusted with that. Look at the impending mess in the US (no matter who wins, everyone loses) and the sociopath in the Philippines.
Lavochkin wrote:Never got why educated people support communism.
In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???
by Runeria » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:08 pm
Gages Icelandic Army wrote:I feel like Glorious Liechtenstein isn't strong enough to not degrade into any of the above categories. It has to be just perfect, it has to be right in the middle of either the figurehead power scale, the leader power scale, or in the middle between figurehead and leader to work right, which I think is stretching it.
Not to mention I don't think you made one for democracy... which was the original request.
And can you tell me how Glorious Liechtenstein is better or different than a president? It looks like if things start looking bad, than the same thing making Despotic hereditary leader with a large role in social life extinct could happen. This looks really good though.
by Runeria » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:11 pm
Pandeeria wrote:I don't want society regressing it's stages of development. So no to ceremonial Monarchs, and a serious no to Monarchs with actual power.
Arcturus Novus wrote:Power should not derive from heredity. It should derive from the consent of the governed. That was established in the 17th (18th?) century. Ideally, there should be nobody governing anyone, but if we have to have a leader, I'd rather they be elected.
by The Conez Imperium » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:16 pm
The Princes of the Universe wrote:Arcturus Novus wrote:Power should not derive from heredity. It should derive from the consent of the governed. That was established in the 17th (18th?) century. Ideally, there should be nobody governing anyone, but if we have to have a leader, I'd rather they be elected.
"The people" are too stupid to be trusted with that. Look at the impending mess in the US (no matter who wins, everyone loses) and the sociopath in the Philippines.
by The Lotus Land » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:24 pm
Runeria wrote:A. Franco and the Nationalists did a lot of bad things. Restoring the Monarchy was not one of them.
B. They wouldn't be so corrupt and useless if you gave them an actual job to do! They're just bored, amigo! If you had a crown and no scepter you'd be on safari right now too. That, and more importantly, generations of misguided reformers eroding the sanctity of the institution are to blame for the Spanish Monarchy being such a shambles.
C. As for the Catalans and Basques, let Navarre and Aragon be their own Kingdoms.
by Pandeeria » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:29 pm
Runeria wrote:Pandeeria wrote:I don't want society regressing it's stages of development. So no to ceremonial Monarchs, and a serious no to Monarchs with actual power.
The idea that the histories of nations follow a natural and inevitable path of development from one system to another is the single most idiotic, contrived principle of Marxism.
Lavochkin wrote:Never got why educated people support communism.
In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???
by Runeria » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:31 pm
The Lotus Land wrote:Runeria wrote:A. Franco and the Nationalists did a lot of bad things. Restoring the Monarchy was not one of them.
B. They wouldn't be so corrupt and useless if you gave them an actual job to do! They're just bored, amigo! If you had a crown and no scepter you'd be on safari right now too. That, and more importantly, generations of misguided reformers eroding the sanctity of the institution are to blame for the Spanish Monarchy being such a shambles.
C. As for the Catalans and Basques, let Navarre and Aragon be their own Kingdoms.
Why give a public job to someone just for being born in certain family? Better abolish all nobility titles and requisition all their properties, lands and money. Then they would have an incentive to work and earn a living, like everyone else.
And I can assure you, the Basque Country and Catalonia are the most republican areas in Spain, and while they are proud of their past, they don't look to restorate their monarchies. A Republic, being the union of all its citizens, is a symbol of national unity much more in accordance with our times, like the French one.
by Runeria » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:37 pm
by NeuPolska » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:37 pm
Kar-Esseria wrote:Who is that and are they female because if not then they can go make love to their hand.
Impaled Nazarene wrote:Go home Polska wins NS.
United Mongol Hordes wrote:Polska isn't exactly the nicest guy in the world
Impaled Nazarene wrote:Hurd you miss the point more than Polska misses Poland.
Rhodesialund wrote:when you have Charlie ten feet away or something operating operationally.
Nirvash Type TheEND wrote:Gayla is living in 1985 but these guys are already in 1916
by Nationalist Gold Union » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:42 pm
by Nickel Empire » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:42 pm
by NeuPolska » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:43 pm
Kar-Esseria wrote:Who is that and are they female because if not then they can go make love to their hand.
Impaled Nazarene wrote:Go home Polska wins NS.
United Mongol Hordes wrote:Polska isn't exactly the nicest guy in the world
Impaled Nazarene wrote:Hurd you miss the point more than Polska misses Poland.
Rhodesialund wrote:when you have Charlie ten feet away or something operating operationally.
Nirvash Type TheEND wrote:Gayla is living in 1985 but these guys are already in 1916
by PaNTuXIa » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:44 pm
by The Lotus Land » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:44 pm
Runeria wrote:You can abolish their legal role if you insist (I wouldn't advise it and have already explained at length why) but taking away all their land and money is outright theft. If you seriously advocate that then I can't really take what you say about justice seriously.
And I'm aware that the majority of Basques and Catalans have bad opinions, yes. In fact, the vast majority of people have bad opinions. That's why Western Civilization is in collapse.
Runeria wrote:Those revolutions didn't even take place in the industrial heartlands as Marx expected, but rather in agrarian Russia and China. Marxist history is utter garbage.
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