Comedic interlude: Only white people have time to debate this kind of thing,
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by Killdash » Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:06 pm
by Galloism » Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:10 pm
by Xerographica » Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:35 pm
Killdash wrote:Xerographica wrote:So, without unfairly summarising you, your premise is that if more people take up the study, you'll get both a control, (sort of) and the competition you desire. Am I right?
There's no control, just the competition. If enough people apply their ideal governments to classrooms... then, in theory, we should see a pattern
No control? So you never intended this as a real experiment, with a group of children who've not been exposed to these viewpoints acting as a marker to test your own result? Is it just meant to be a sort of ideological Hunger Games?
Killdash wrote:This hasn't answered the basic, and to me, biggest problem in your theory. What about the people who aren't qualified? Let's use another example, and I'll be fair, and pick on myself. I'm not an economist. Sure, I've had a basic overview, it's a subject I'm trying to learn more about, but if you asked me to draft a modern fiscal budget or something, I wouldn't have a clue how to do it. Worse, even if you showed me a full analysis, with charts and math, I wouldn't be able to say which was better without being told. So I might not be motivated to pay for it. So far, so good. Except, I really don't like the idealism of communism. So if it sounded communistical, I might spend money voting against it. But I don't know for sure, this could actually be the best way forward, and it's even possible that it's not even a communistical plan. But my ignorance is detrimental, and if there were enough people like me, we might even actually cause something stupid. It'd be the same with climate change, separation of church and state and maybe even some things we currently consider "human rights". How do you plan to protect these? Do you? And if so, what's the justification?
Killdash wrote:I wonder why one of the smarter kids hasn't just put a big stake on "field trip" or "abolish school" yet? That would be quite rich, pardon the pun.
Killdash wrote:And while I'm aware of that time argument, I have an answer before you accuse me of tying my waggon to the tired, old, conservative nag. It's not my argument. It's what I imagine yours to be. Because, other than longevity, what criteria do you use to evaluate a systems success? And if so, where do these criteria come from?
Killdash wrote:Not quite true. Yes, in a representative democracy, my direct voice may not be so heard, in fact it may sound quite quiet by comparison, and sometimes that's probably better.However, if I really feel like I've got an issue, I can take proactive steps to make things change. I can rally, talk, blog, even run for office myself. All of that to change votes, and get them where I want them. This also strikes me as more productive than literally putting in your two cents in every issue.
Xerographica wrote:You expect congress to make public goods choices with due consideration for my wellbeing. My wellbeing? In the private sector I have to spend so much time and energy going around telling producers what works for my wellbeing. I shop and shop and shop. For example, I go to the store and buy some artichokes. In doing so I tell Frank the farmer, "Hey! You correctly guessed that my wellbeing depends on artichokes! Thanks! Good lookin' out! Here's some money! Keep up the good work!"
Yet here you are telling me that congress can know what works for my wellbeing despite the fact that I've never once in my life shopped in the public sector. It boggles my mind. It blows my mind. It bears repeating with emphasis... congress can know what works for my wellbeing despite the fact that I've never once in my life shopped in the public sector. If you even suspect that this is true... then please... don't hide your insight under a bushel. Start a thread here, there and everywhere and say "Hey folks! Shopping is entirely redundant! It's entirely unnecessary for us to spend so much of our limited time and energy using our cash to communicate what works for our wellbeing."
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.
by The Two Jerseys » Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:36 pm
by Camicon » Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:01 pm
Xerographica wrote:Killdash wrote:
No control? So you never intended this as a real experiment, with a group of children who've not been exposed to these viewpoints acting as a marker to test your own result? Is it just meant to be a sort of ideological Hunger Games?
I really don't know how to improve on my explanation in the OP. We've seen the devastating consequences of people applying their ideal governments to countries. Therefore, let's apply our ideal governments to classrooms. If the teacher observes anything potentially harmful, then she can stop applying the government to the classroom. It will be informative to see which systems of government do the best when applied to classrooms.
*snip*
Country of glowing hearts, and patrons of the artsThe Trews, Under The Sun
Help me out
Star spangled madness, united sadness
Count me out
No human is more human than any other. - Lieutenant-General Roméo Antonius Dallaire
Don't shine for swine. - Metric, Soft Rock Star
Love is hell. Hell is love. Hell is asking to be loved. - Emily Haines and the Soft Skeleton, Detective Daughter
by Neutraligon » Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:01 pm
Xerographica wrote:I really don't know how to improve on my explanation in the OP. We've seen the devastating consequences of people applying their ideal governments to countries. Therefore, let's apply our ideal governments to classrooms. If the teacher observes anything potentially harmful, then she can stop applying the government to the classroom. It will be informative to see which systems of government do the best when applied to classrooms.
by The Two Jerseys » Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:06 pm
Neutraligon wrote:Xerographica wrote:I really don't know how to improve on my explanation in the OP. We've seen the devastating consequences of people applying their ideal governments to countries. Therefore, let's apply our ideal governments to classrooms. If the teacher observes anything potentially harmful, then she can stop applying the government to the classroom. It will be informative to see which systems of government do the best when applied to classrooms.
Because first classrooms do not match real world scenarios and therefore studying it in the classroom does not go to show it will work in the real world. if it fails in the classroom that does not mean it fails in the real world, if it succeeds in the classroom that does not mean it will fail in the real world. Second because there is no way to know why it did or did not work in the classroom, including whether it was the system that worked or something else that worked and the system was incidental. Without controls there are so many variables that you have no way of knowing. This "test" will tell you absolutely nothing.
by Neutraligon » Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:08 pm
The Two Jerseys wrote:Neutraligon wrote:
Because first classrooms do not match real world scenarios and therefore studying it in the classroom does not go to show it will work in the real world. if it fails in the classroom that does not mean it fails in the real world, if it succeeds in the classroom that does not mean it will fail in the real world. Second because there is no way to know why it did or did not work in the classroom, including whether it was the system that worked or something else that worked and the system was incidental. Without controls there are so many variables that you have no way of knowing. This "test" will tell you absolutely nothing.
Well, Gallo tried it in the real world.
And his friends saw right through it...
by Galloism » Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:34 pm
by Soldati Senza Confini » Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:36 pm
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.
by Neutraligon » Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:49 pm
Galloism wrote:Neutraligon wrote:True, that is one very small sample size, but still true.
We're going to do a bigger one starting on the 31st. I've got 29 students in two classes that are going to try this system, testing herd mentality and its effect on the system.
There's also going to be weekly surveys on how thisgamedecision making apparatus affects their desire to come to class, whether it calms, excites, or deters. I will also include the daily weather since the thing being bid on is whether or not to have class outside in the gazebo or inside in the classroom.
There will also be a survey at the end asking if they liked this method ofgamblingmaking decisions or if they would prefer some other method, and if they would prefer some other method, to describe that method.
by Galloism » Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:57 pm
Neutraligon wrote:Galloism wrote:We're going to do a bigger one starting on the 31st. I've got 29 students in two classes that are going to try this system, testing herd mentality and its effect on the system.
There's also going to be weekly surveys on how thisgamedecision making apparatus affects their desire to come to class, whether it calms, excites, or deters. I will also include the daily weather since the thing being bid on is whether or not to have class outside in the gazebo or inside in the classroom.
There will also be a survey at the end asking if they liked this method ofgamblingmaking decisions or if they would prefer some other method, and if they would prefer some other method, to describe that method.
Partway though will one of the classes be told about the "trick"?
by Neutraligon » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:00 pm
Galloism wrote:Neutraligon wrote:Partway though will one of the classes be told about the "trick"?
Well, in the morning class, the professor will be part of the game - injecting himself into the experiment. It won't be told to the class, but there's a question of whether they will follow the lead of someone who is winning the game monetarily. That part of the herd mentality (the professor also abides by a strict "only hedging" rule).
The afternoon class will be left to their own devices.
by Galloism » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:01 pm
Neutraligon wrote:Galloism wrote:Well, in the morning class, the professor will be part of the game - injecting himself into the experiment. It won't be told to the class, but there's a question of whether they will follow the lead of someone who is winning the game monetarily. That part of the herd mentality (the professor also abides by a strict "only hedging" rule).
The afternoon class will be left to their own devices.
Is it really herd mentality if people see the advantage of doing it a certain way and decide to also do it that way? I mean I guess it is but that is not normally how I see the term used.
by Neutraligon » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:03 pm
by Galloism » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:04 pm
Neutraligon wrote:Galloism wrote:Well, there's a question of acceleration.
True. I mean the more people who do it the more visible it is, but how do you tell the difference between seeing a good idea and copying and doing it because others are doing it? I guess they could be asked the reason they chose the strategy they are choosing.
by Neutraligon » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:07 pm
Galloism wrote:Neutraligon wrote:True. I mean the more people who do it the more visible it is, but how do you tell the difference between seeing a good idea and copying and doing it because others are doing it? I guess they could be asked the reason they chose the strategy they are choosing.
Well, each bid is supposed to be accompanied by a few words describing why, but those reasonings aren't shared with the class. They're part of the notes.
(I will be including those reasonings)
by Galloism » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:15 pm
by Soldati Senza Confini » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:22 pm
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.
by Neutraligon » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:30 pm
by The Two Jerseys » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:33 pm
Galloism wrote:Neutraligon wrote:True, that is one very small sample size, but still true.
We're going to do a bigger one starting on the 31st. I've got 29 students in two classes that are going to try this system, testing herd mentality and its effect on the system.
There's also going to be weekly surveys on how thisgamedecision making apparatus affects their desire to come to class, whether it calms, excites, or deters. I will also include the daily weather since the thing being bid on is whether or not to have class outside in the gazebo or inside in the classroom.
There will also be a survey at the end asking if they liked this method ofgamblingmaking decisions or if they would prefer some other method, and if they would prefer some other method, to describe that method.
by Soldati Senza Confini » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:34 pm
Neutraligon wrote:Galloism wrote:Btw, and this may come as no surprise to you, when the information is passed to me identifying information will be wiped. I won't have names, ages, races or even genders of the students.
Not the way I'd like it, but it's the way it has to be.
I can understand names, but the rest seems a little strange to wipe.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.
by Galloism » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:52 pm
The Two Jerseys wrote:Galloism wrote:We're going to do a bigger one starting on the 31st. I've got 29 students in two classes that are going to try this system, testing herd mentality and its effect on the system.
There's also going to be weekly surveys on how thisgamedecision making apparatus affects their desire to come to class, whether it calms, excites, or deters. I will also include the daily weather since the thing being bid on is whether or not to have class outside in the gazebo or inside in the classroom.
There will also be a survey at the end asking if they liked this method ofgamblingmaking decisions or if they would prefer some other method, and if they would prefer some other method, to describe that method.
Halfway through the experiment, are you going to replicate Xero's process and start auctioning off the slips of paper from the inside of fortune cookies, or are you going to stay on target?
by Soldati Senza Confini » Sat Oct 22, 2016 8:10 pm
Galloism wrote:The Two Jerseys wrote:Halfway through the experiment, are you going to replicate Xero's process and start auctioning off the slips of paper from the inside of fortune cookies, or are you going to stay on target?
Heh.
No. We're going to keep this as... pure... as practical. So to speak.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.
by Galloism » Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:00 pm
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