A Study of Maoism

[The Liberated Territories]

You mean in places such as Angola, DRC, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Somalia, Mozambique, Benin, Ethiopia, and Zimbabwe? I'm pretty sure the non-communist wrecked countries, such as Ghana and South Africa, are doing generally better.

You know that Malawi, Burundi, the CAR, and Liberia are some of the poorest countries in Africa (some of them more poor than any that you've listed) and they were capitalist since their independence, right? Actually they were before that, as their colonial oppressors already adopted capitalism for a century or two.

Which colonial power colonized Liberia? AFAIK the Liberians screwed themselves.

It doesn't seem like capitalism was the problem in many of these nations, but rather failures of democracy. All of them you listed had some sort of opportunistic dictator come along and in practice, achieve the same results of the so called socialist nations. But these are only four nations.

You know that Malawi, Burundi, the CAR, and Liberia are some of the poorest countries in Africa (some of them more poor than any that you've listed) and they were capitalist since their independence, right? Actually they were before that, as their colonial oppressors already adopted capitalism for a century or two.

Other people can cherry pick too, you know. Ghana, South Africa, Botswana, Namibia, and Gabon are doing relatively well and used capitalist methods to do it.

And Nigeria surprisingly, which is said to be a global 20 power by 2020.

[PaNTuXIa]

Most of those countries were puppets of other states, or were so heavily influenced that it was inevitable their system would shift toward totalitarianism.

In essence, all Communist movements that took power in the 20th century were outgrowths of the Russian Revolution; of the Bolsheviks. Mongolia was turned into a Soviet satellite state, the Warsaw Pact were both decimated by World War Two and were Stalin's puppets, and both China, Cuba, and North Korea took heavy inspiration and influence from the USSR. Further more, the various SE Asian communist states took inspiration from China.

It is also of no coincidence that all of these places were undeveloped, rural dirt holes with famine and disease. It doesn't matter what system you practice, when you don't have an educated populace and the necessary infrastructure, industry, and social programs to ensure things go smoothly, then terrible stuff will happen.

Yet all the above are the result of capitalist wealth. Why does Finland have the best education system, France the best healthcare system, Sweden the best welfare system? Certainly it can't be due to socialism, which has never been instated on a massive scale in these countries as the USSR had. All of these systems are the product of capitalism being able to fund them. It seems that in order for "socialism" to be productive, it needs to become a parasite on existing capitalist nations.

Those aren't due to capitalism, they're due to state intervention in the economy.

[PaNTuXIa]

Though, fun fact, the countries with the highest minimum wages (Afghanistan, Albania, Nigeria) are all third world countries. Take from this what you will.

[Pandeeria]

You know that Malawi, Burundi, the CAR, and Liberia are some of the poorest countries in Africa (some of them more poor than any that you've listed) and they were capitalist since their independence, right? Actually they were before that, as their colonial oppressors already adopted capitalism for a century or two.

Other people can cherry pick too, you know. Ghana, South Africa, Botswana, Namibia, and Gabon are doing relatively well and used capitalist methods to do it.

The point is that cherry picking is bad, not matter how you do it.

[The Liberated Territories]

Yet all the above are the result of capitalist wealth. Why does Finland have the best education system, France the best healthcare system, Sweden the best welfare system? Certainly it can't be due to socialism, which has never been instated on a massive scale in these countries as the USSR had. All of these systems are the product of capitalism being able to fund them. It seems that in order for "socialism" to be productive, it needs to become a parasite on existing capitalist nations.

Those aren't due to capitalism, they're due to state intervention in the economy.

I'm sure state-intervention in the economy is the reason why Venezuela is the pinnacle of healthcare, education, and the reason why it has such a high standard of living.

Try again.

[PaNTuXIa]

Those aren't due to capitalism, they're due to state intervention in the economy.

I'm sure state-intervention in the economy is the reason why Venezuela is the pinnacle of healthcare, education, and the reason why it has such a high standard of living.

Try again.

What? You didn't even address my original point.

France has moderate tax rates of 45%. The US helped Apple develop the iPhone. Sweden well, it's fucking Sweden.

[Pandeeria]

You know that Malawi, Burundi, the CAR, and Liberia are some of the poorest countries in Africa (some of them more poor than any that you've listed) and they were capitalist since their independence, right? Actually they were before that, as their colonial oppressors already adopted capitalism for a century or two.

Which colonial power colonized Liberia? AFAIK the Liberians screwed themselves.

It doesn't seem like capitalism was the problem in many of these nations, but rather failures of democracy. All of them you listed had some sort of opportunistic dictator come along and in practice, achieve the same results of the so called socialist nations. But these are only four nations.

Are you familiar with US-Liberian history? They were practically a de facto colony of the US at one point, and pretty always was a market to US companies.

The failure of Democracy also occurred in the USSR, China, etc. The exact reasons capitalism has failed in Asia and Africa are the reasons Socialism failed in Russia and China. If you also want some more example of failed Capitalist states, see: most of Africa.

[The Liberated Territories]

I'm sure state-intervention in the economy is the reason why Venezuela is the pinnacle of healthcare, education, and the reason why it has such a high standard of living.

Try again.

What? You didn't even address my original point.

France has moderate tax rates of 45%. The US helped Apple develop the iPhone. Sweden well, it's fucking Sweden.

Then you need to be more specific with your original point, because I am discussing socialism vs. capitalism right now, and all of those countries are very capitalist.

[Geilinor]

I'm sure state-intervention in the economy is the reason why Venezuela is the pinnacle of healthcare, education, and the reason why it has such a high standard of living.

Try again.

What? You didn't even address my original point.

France has moderate tax rates of 45%. The US helped Apple develop the iPhone. Sweden well, it's fucking Sweden.

Exactly. France has moderate tax rates. What do you think would happen to France's economy if it raised the top rates to 70%?

[PaNTuXIa]

What? You didn't even address my original point.

France has moderate tax rates of 45%. The US helped Apple develop the iPhone. Sweden well, it's fucking Sweden.

Then you need to be more specific with your original point, because I am discussing socialism vs. capitalism right now, and all of those countries are very capitalist.

Really? I though state regulation was anti-capitalist.

What? You didn't even address my original point.

France has moderate tax rates of 45%. The US helped Apple develop the iPhone. Sweden well, it's fucking Sweden.

Exactly. France has moderate tax rates. What do you think would happen to France's economy if it raised the top rates to 70%?

And what would happen if they eliminated income taxes?

[Geilinor]

Then you need to be more specific with your original point, because I am discussing socialism vs. capitalism right now, and all of those countries are very capitalist.

Really? I though state regulation was anti-capitalist.

Exactly. France has moderate tax rates. What do you think would happen to France's economy if it raised the top rates to 70%?

And what would happen if they eliminated income taxes?

Capitalism doesn't mean no income taxes.

[PaNTuXIa]

Really? I though state regulation was anti-capitalist.

And what would happen if they eliminated income taxes?

Capitalism doesn't mean no income taxes.

Full capitalism does.

And besides, don't market regulations go against capitalist principles?

[Geilinor]

Capitalism doesn't mean no income taxes.

Full capitalism does.

And besides, don't market regulations go against capitalist principles?

"Full capitalism" doesn't mean anything.

[The Liberated Territories]

Which colonial power colonized Liberia? AFAIK the Liberians screwed themselves.

It doesn't seem like capitalism was the problem in many of these nations, but rather failures of democracy. All of them you listed had some sort of opportunistic dictator come along and in practice, achieve the same results of the so called socialist nations. But these are only four nations.

Are you familiar with US-Liberian history? They were practically a de facto colony of the US at one point, and pretty always was a market to US companies.

The failure of Democracy also occurred in the USSR, China, etc. The exact reasons capitalism has failed in Asia and Africa are the reasons Socialism failed in Russia and China. If you also want some more example of failed Capitalist states, see: most of Africa.

You tell me not to cherry pick, but I have shown you examples of successful capitalist states in Africa and the opposite (whom tend to not be that capitalistic) and now go back and claim all of Africa are full of failed capitalist states. It seems that too you, "capitalism" will always be the boogyman, instead of the varied conditions that make it impossible for capitalism to grow in the same way they prevented "socialism" in USSR and China to grow. (And it seems that capitalism is bailing out the latter as we speak.)

[The Liberated Territories]

What? You didn't even address my original point.

France has moderate tax rates of 45%. The US helped Apple develop the iPhone. Sweden well, it's fucking Sweden.

Exactly. France has moderate tax rates. What do you think would happen to France's economy if it raised the top rates to 70%?

They'd leave.

[PaNTuXIa]

Exactly. France has moderate tax rates. What do you think would happen to France's economy if it raised the top rates to 70%?

They'd leave.

Frexit?

[The Liberated Territories]

They'd leave.

Frexit?

Literally.

[Pandeeria]

Are you familiar with US-Liberian history? They were practically a de facto colony of the US at one point, and pretty always was a market to US companies.

The failure of Democracy also occurred in the USSR, China, etc. The exact reasons capitalism has failed in Asia and Africa are the reasons Socialism failed in Russia and China. If you also want some more example of failed Capitalist states, see: most of Africa.

You tell me not to cherry pick, but I have shown you examples of successful capitalist states in Africa and the opposite (whom tend to not be that capitalistic) and now go back and claim all of Africa are full of failed capitalist states. It seems that too you, "capitalism" will always be the boogyman, instead of the varied conditions that make it impossible for capitalism to grow in the same way they prevented "socialism" in USSR and China to grow. (And it seems that capitalism is bailing out the latter as we speak.)

I am literally the one that proposed it was because of material conditions rather than ideology and de jure economic system. Don't try to turn things around.

I oppose capitalism, but not for what it has done in places like Africa. That I attribute to other reasons. I oppose it for what it is in the first world.

[The Northern Chinese Provinces]

Remember, everyone, we're on this now:

Isn't there any shorter works of Mao we can discuss?

There are, but this is the real stuff. The rest is longer than this or just a collection of his quotes.

[The New Sea Territory]

Mao tried to apply Marxism in a Chinese sense.

That's too vague to mean anything worth rebutting.

Since China didn't have a large industrial base like Russia did, Mao had to change things. But at the end of the day, it was still Marxism.

If I made a Christian sect where Jesus and God were totally omitted, only for the Holy Spirit, would it still be a Christian religion?

That's basically Mao's interpretation of dialectical materialism.

Just Marxism made to suit the unique circumstances of Chinese society.

I don't think you get it. Marxism isn't simply a political ideology. It is a method of analysis, it has philosophical and historical theories (Diamat and historical materialism). Mao fundamentally changed the laws of dialectical materialism...that's the basis of all Marxism.

Things like collectivization of agriculture which led to the whole 45 million people dead in four years thing. Those were Marxist. Collectivization doesn't work. And of course Mao blamed his failures by scapegoating "enemies of the Revolution".

Where did Marx and Engels say "Kill 45 million people by "collectivizing" agriculture"?

But continue trying to shrug it off because it isn't Real Marxism™.

I will, because Mao's interpretation of Marxism took all the Marx and Engels out of Marxism.

Maybe your ideology *gasp* doesn't work.

Lol. I'm not a Marxist.

[The New Sea Territory]

Which colonial power colonized Liberia? AFAIK the Liberians screwed themselves.

Colonialism affects people even when they are not directly colonized. The Europeans benefiting from Colonialism, and the neutral countries who traded with these Europeans, were not directly colonized. The same holds true for Liberia.

This is because colonialism was too large an economic system to solely affect the colonists and the natives.

[The Northern Chinese Provinces]

So
Has anyone actually read "On Contradiction"? Or was it too long?

Cause if you want, we can just go through the little red book (which is, in fact, online, and much shorter).

[Bakery Hill]

Exactly. France has moderate tax rates. What do you think would happen to France's economy if it raised the top rates to 70%?

They'd leave.

Let the fuckers go. But they can leave their shit behind.

[Lydenburg]

Which colonial power colonized Liberia? AFAIK the Liberians screwed themselves.

It doesn't seem like capitalism was the problem in many of these nations, but rather failures of democracy. All of them you listed had some sort of opportunistic dictator come along and in practice, achieve the same results of the so called socialist nations. But these are only four nations.

Are you familiar with US-Liberian history? They were practically a de facto colony of the US at one point, and pretty always was a market to US companies.

The failure of Democracy also occurred in the USSR, China, etc. The exact reasons capitalism has failed in Asia and Africa are the reasons Socialism failed in Russia and China. If you also want some more example of failed Capitalist states, see: most of Africa.

This is terrible logic.

Most (sub-Saharan) African countries can be counted neither as truly capitalist or socialist in the normal sense of the word.

A general trend is the over-representation of a few Western companies and their respective subsidiaries in a given country's economy. This is especially the case with Francophone states and French companies.

On the other hand, many of these same states called themselves socialist and made private enterprise by their own citizens illegal, like Benin, Mozambique, and the People's Republic of the Congo.

So they were capitalist in the sense that their respective governments profited massively by protecting a monopoly of a few multinational corporations while on the other hand still spouting Marxist rhetoric, having these massive collectivised farms, confiscating all small businesses, and bringing all locally owned industry under control of the state.

I'm not sure if there's even a word for this horrendous style of mismanagement.

[Kubra]

So
Has anyone actually read "On Contradiction"? Or was it too long?

Cause if you want, we can just go through the little red book (which is, in fact, online, and much shorter).

I did, or have, but I'm not too stoked on discussion about it. It'd just be you me and like 2 other fellow autists confusing each other with a half-fluent latin.