Nude Beach Economics

[Major-Tom]

I'm very confused, but also intrigued, because there was a promise of nudity.

[Thermodolia]

My two cents say you should stop making these threads.

Like, literally, I will pay you two cents to just not do this anymore.

I'll raise you a buck

[The Two Jerseys]

So let me get this straight: if I have the option of bidding on "clone Hitler and enslave anyone who's not a heterosexual white male" and "don't clone Hitler and enslave anyone who's not a heterosexual white male", and if I lose the auction I get my money back, plus a share of whatever the winning bid was, and if I win the bid but the person running the auction decides not to implement what I bid for, I get my money back, plus a share of the losing bid...

...then I have absolutely no incentive not to bid in favor of Hitler and slavery.

[Xerographica]

If you pay people for losing, you incentivise people to bid on the option they do not want as long as they feel it has overwhelming support to win.

What? In the OP I discussed the example of Uber opening up its big decision to public valuation. You're saying that people would have an incentive to spend their money on the least valuable option in order to get paid. In this case... what's the least valuable option?

A. go driverless
B. no driverless

I think that if we already knew, for a fact, which option was the least valuable then... what would be the point of coasianism?

But let's say that, for some reason, everybody guesses that "no driverless" is the least valuable option. According to you... everybody would have an incentive to spend their money on this option. Do you seriously not see the problem? Seriously?

[Galloism]

If you pay people for losing, you incentivise people to bid on the option they do not want as long as they feel it has overwhelming support to win.

What? In the OP I discussed the example of Uber opening up its big decision to public valuation. You're saying that people would have an incentive to spend their money on the least valuable option in order to get paid. In this case... what's the least valuable option?

A. go driverless
B. no driverless

I think that if we already knew, for a fact, which option was the least valuable then... what would be the point of coasianism?

But let's say that, for some reason, everybody guesses that "no driverless" is the least valuable option. According to you... everybody would have an incentive to spend their money on this option. Do you seriously not see the problem? Seriously?

I'm saying whatever the polls say, the financial incentive is to lose, regardless of your personal beliefs.

Which is the whole point.

I'm not sure if the bidding is public or private, but if there are polls done, whatever the polls say, my incentive is to go against it. Whatever the conventional wisdom is that's best, the best thing for me to do is to go against it. This is how I get paid. I personally profit from 'losing', while I personally lose from 'winning'. If I'm a gambling person, my best bet is to choose the least valuable option. If i'm not a gambling person, then the best move is not to play.

It doesn't matter which one is the best option. If the best option is driverless, the incentive is to bid against them. If the best option is no driverless, my incentive is to bid for driverless. It's an irrelevant distraction to try to even determine which is the most valuable option for our exercise, because my best outcome is to go against it either way.

Collective benefit/loss almost always takes a backseat to personal profit/loss at the individual level.

Incidentally, I love the Princess Bride.

[The Holy Therns]

What? In the OP I discussed the example of Uber opening up its big decision to public valuation. You're saying that people would have an incentive to spend their money on the least valuable option in order to get paid. In this case... what's the least valuable option?

A. go driverless
B. no driverless

I think that if we already knew, for a fact, which option was the least valuable then... what would be the point of coasianism?

But let's say that, for some reason, everybody guesses that "no driverless" is the least valuable option. According to you... everybody would have an incentive to spend their money on this option. Do you seriously not see the problem? Seriously?

I'm saying whatever the polls say, the financial incentive is to lose, regardless of your personal beliefs.

Which is the whole point.

I'm not sure if the bidding is public or private, but if there are polls done, whatever the polls say, my incentive is to go against it. Whatever the conventional wisdom is that's best, the best thing for me to do is to go against it. This is how I get paid. I personally profit from losing, while I personally lose from winning. If I'm a gambling person, my best bet is to choose the least valuable option. If i'm not a gambling person, then the best move is not to play.

It doesn't matter which one is the best option. If the best option is driverless, the incentive is to bid against them. If the best option is no driverless, my incentive is to bid for driverless. It's an irrelevant distraction to try to even determine which is the most valuable option for our exercise, because my best outcome is to go against it either way.

Incidentally, I love the Princess Bride.

Damn it I'm never going to unthink you two as the poisoned wine scene.

[Galloism]

I'm saying whatever the polls say, the financial incentive is to lose, regardless of your personal beliefs.

Which is the whole point.

I'm not sure if the bidding is public or private, but if there are polls done, whatever the polls say, my incentive is to go against it. Whatever the conventional wisdom is that's best, the best thing for me to do is to go against it. This is how I get paid. I personally profit from losing, while I personally lose from winning. If I'm a gambling person, my best bet is to choose the least valuable option. If i'm not a gambling person, then the best move is not to play.

It doesn't matter which one is the best option. If the best option is driverless, the incentive is to bid against them. If the best option is no driverless, my incentive is to bid for driverless. It's an irrelevant distraction to try to even determine which is the most valuable option for our exercise, because my best outcome is to go against it either way.

Incidentally, I love the Princess Bride.

Damn it I'm never going to unthink you two as the poisoned wine scene.

I do hope I'm The Dread Pirate Roberts.

[Xerographica]

My two cents say you should stop making these threads.

Like, literally, I will pay you two cents to just not do this anymore.

I'll raise you a buck

You'll pay me a dollar to stop making threads? No deal. I'll pay you a dollar to stop reading my threads. Oh wait, I lied. I will not pay you any money to stop reading my threads. If you don't like my threads then why do you read them? Masochistic much?

I don't read your threads. Should I? Have I been missing out? Link me to some of your threads so I can judge for myself whether or not they are worth my time.

[Galloism]

I'll raise you a buck

You'll pay me a dollar to stop making threads? No deal. I'll pay you a dollar to stop reading my threads. Oh wait, I lied. I will not pay you any money to stop reading my threads. If you don't like my threads then why do you read them? Masochistic much?

I don't read your threads. Should I? Have I been missing out? Link me to some of your threads so I can judge for myself whether or not they are worth my time.

If we're going to follow your 'system', you're going to have to pay him a dollar in order to keep posting threads.

Never mind he doesn't own the forum. A bid has been placed, and you must outbid him to keep posting, otherwise you can never post again.

[Xerographica]

You'll pay me a dollar to stop making threads? No deal. I'll pay you a dollar to stop reading my threads. Oh wait, I lied. I will not pay you any money to stop reading my threads. If you don't like my threads then why do you read them? Masochistic much?

I don't read your threads. Should I? Have I been missing out? Link me to some of your threads so I can judge for myself whether or not they are worth my time.

If we're going to follow your 'system', you're going to have to pay him a dollar in order to keep posting threads.

Never mind he doesn't own the forum. A bid has been placed, and you must outbid him to keep posting, otherwise you can never post again.

LOL... maybe one day you'll learn the difference between stated preference and demonstrated preference. But I'm really not going to hold my breath.

[Galloism]

If we're going to follow your 'system', you're going to have to pay him a dollar in order to keep posting threads.

Never mind he doesn't own the forum. A bid has been placed, and you must outbid him to keep posting, otherwise you can never post again.

LOL... maybe one day you'll learn the difference between stated preference and demonstrated preference. But I'm really not going to hold my breath.

/shrug

He's offered to put up a real dollar, and the other guy offered to put up 2 cents.

Bidding is at $1.02 for Xero to stop posting threads. You guys have to pay Xero $1.02 unless you're outbid.

Do we hear any bids to keep Xero posting? Anyone? Anyone?

[Xerographica]

It's an irrelevant distraction to try to even determine which is the most valuable option for our exercise, because my best outcome is to go against it either way.

What in the world? You and I are about to watch a soccer match... Egypt versus Cambodia. You want to bet on the team that loses... but you argue that determining which team will lose is irrelevant.

[Lydenburg]

I have no idea if this thread is about sexism, economics, one's choice of clothing, public nudity, self perception, Albert Einstein, self driving cars, handling of one's personal finances, self worth, what I see when I look in the mirror, Uber, or what could have prevented an unspecified civil war.

I went to bed later than usual last night. Stayed up late reading something by Einstein, I think. Before my head finally hit the pillow the last thing I remember was browsing the headlines and noting that Nottinghamshire recently banned wolf whistles. Also, something about Uber.

#EinsteinNottinghamshirewolfwhistleUber

Can't get it out of my head now. Why do I have to get up for work this morning? At least the coffee in the office is strong. Agh, I hate seeing my hair and face in this state. I wonder what would happen if I just never looked into the mirror? Why bother, right? In fact, why don't we all stop looking into the mirror? Nothing there but bad news right? *brush* *brush* *brush*

#EinsteinNottinghamshirewolfwhistleUberwhylookinthemirror

Wow, that is a pretty girl in the lobby this morning. What a fetching green dress. Is she doing us all a favour by walking through our lives? Indeed, walking through our lobby? Is that something you can put a marketable value on? Isn't this whole scenario something James Buchanan once said? Man, I can't remember. I need that coffee!

#EinsteinNottinghamshirewoflwhistleUberwhylookinthemirrorprettywomangreendressvalueJamesBuchanan

Maybe I should talk to her, ask her where she bought that amazing dress. But wait! If I insult her instead, does that mean her value is diminished in any way? I'm so glad I work in sales.

#EinsteinNottinghamshirewoflwhistleUberwhylookinthemirrorprettywomangreendressvalueJamesBuchananinsult?

You know they say in the future we'll be able to communicate and transfer funds using silicon chips in our head. Wouldn't that be amazing? Especially if I could devalue the woman in the green dress without even physically speaking to her. Wait a minute, what happens if somebody sends her money just because they like her dress? Wouldn't that cause her value to go up? That is unless somebody ELSE sends her sends a negative amount of money, thereby canceling out the first amount and thus she actually diminishes in value instead? Oh God, where's that coffee?

#EinsteinNottinghamshirewoflwhistleUberwhylookinthemirrorprettywomangreendressvalueJamesBuchananinsult?electronicchiptransfer

James drank all the coffee. Bastard. I'll just have to steal Frank's cup, he siphoned some from Accounting across the hall.

#EinsteinNottinghamshirewoflwhistleUberwhylookinthemirrorprettywomangreendressvalueJamesBuchananinsult?electronicchiptransfer JamesyouSOB

Frank already drank his coffee. Isn't he going on vacation next week? I heard him say something about a nude beach. I'll bet he'll appreciate seeing Green Dress at a nude beach. They would make such a cute couple. How do people on nude beaches react when attractive individuals go by? Looks like I'm off to Accounting.

#EinsteinNottinghamshirewoflwhistleUberwhylookinthemirrorprettywomangreendressvalueJamesBuchananinsult?electronicchiptransfer JamesyouSOBFranknudebeach

Somebody in Accounting is talking about Uber. Hey, wasn't I reading something about this last night? It's all a jumble though. I think it was about driverless cars. Heyy, if I invest in only driverless cars won't I be saving money? Why haven't I done this yet? COFFEEEEEE...

#EinsteinNottinghamshirewoflwhistleUberwhylookinthemirrorprettywomangreendressvalueJamesBuchananinsult?electronicchiptransfer JamesyouSOBFranknudebeachdriverlesscars

Accounting was all out, too. James is behind this somehow. I know he is. Look at him, with his full cup steaming in the corner. How I long to give him a good hiding, put my fist in that clown arse stupid face of his. Now I have to sit through this meeting with my history buff boss as he babbles something about drawing parallels with the market during the civil war. Mmmmmm, this table surface is so comfy. Let me just get some much-needed rest...

Arrrghh! No, I can't die yet. I must write down all the ingenious ideas I had this morning in one place, where I can find them again. No - I must release them to the world, so it can appreciate my greatness! Why does this feel like the best idea I've ever had?

#EinsteinNottinghamshirewoflwhistleUberwhylookinthemirrorprettywomangreendressvalueJamesBuchananinsult?electronicchiptransfer JamesyouSOBFranknudebeachdriverlesscarscivilwar

>www.nationstates.net

GOOD ENOUGH!

>Submit Topic

Let's see, what's a racy title guaranteed to drum up the number of views?

"NUDE BEACH ECONOMICS"

ZZZzzzzzzzZZZZzzzzzz....

[Galloism]

It's an irrelevant distraction to try to even determine which is the most valuable option for our exercise, because my best outcome is to go against it either way.

What in the world? You and I are about to watch a soccer match... Egypt versus Cambodia. You want to bet on the team that loses... but you argue that determining which team will lose is irrelevant.

It's irrelevant to the overall argument - it doesn't MATTER which one is the best option, the best thing for personal profit is to ALWAYS go against it.

Run your scenario both ways.

Driverless cars is the best option and has overwhelming support. If I want to PERSONALLY profit, the best thing to do is to bid against them. The most individually rational action is to bid against the public good.

Driverless cars are the worst option and has overwhelming opposition. If I want to PERSONALLY profit, the best to do is to bid for them. The most individually rational action is to bid against the public good.

It doesn't change the answer - the answer is always to bid against the most supported option, no matter what it is or how good it is.

[The Two Jerseys]

LOL... maybe one day you'll learn the difference between stated preference and demonstrated preference. But I'm really not going to hold my breath.

/shrug

He's offered to put up a real dollar, and the other guy offered to put up 2 cents.

Bidding is at $1.02 for Xero to stop posting threads. You guys have to pay Xero $1.02 unless you're outbid.

Do we hear any bids to keep Xero posting? Anyone? Anyone?

$1 for stop.

Because I fully expect Xero not to hold up his end, so at least I'll get my money back.

[Galloism]

/shrug

He's offered to put up a real dollar, and the other guy offered to put up 2 cents.

Bidding is at $1.02 for Xero to stop posting threads. You guys have to pay Xero $1.02 unless you're outbid.

Do we hear any bids to keep Xero posting? Anyone? Anyone?

$1 for stop.

Because I fully expect Xero not to hold up his end, so at least I'll get my money back.

Up to $2.02. We're getting some real economic value here gentlemen!

[Xerographica]

It doesn't change the answer - the answer is always to bid against the most supported option, no matter what it is or how good it is.

If everybody bids against the most supported option... the most supported option obviously becomes the least supported option. Imagine a teeter-totter. If everybody jumps on the upside ... what happens? The upside automatically becomes the downside. In order to game coasianism... you have to play chicken with the entire country. It's so ridiculous. Who in their right mind will try and play chicken with the entire country? Only an idiot. For every idiot betting on one side there is an idiot betting on the other side. The idiots will cancel each other out. The most profitable strategy will always be to bid reasonably close to your true valuation. The smart people will figure this out sooner rather than later.

[Galloism]

It doesn't change the answer - the answer is always to bid against the most supported option, no matter what it is or how good it is.

If everybody bids against the most supported option... the most supported option obviously becomes the least supported option. Imagine a teeter-totter. If everybody jumps on the upside ... what happens? The upside automatically becomes the downside. In order to game coasianism... you have to play chicken with the entire country.

Yeah, that's a very logical result of your system.

It's so ridiculous.

Yes, your system is ridiculous.

Who in their right mind will try and play chicken with the entire country?

Anyone interested in increasing their personal profit and therefore 'increasing their influence'. People play chicken with the entire country all the time. Did you not watch Brexit? People literally voted for Brexit while they personally wanted to stay in in order to 'send a message'. Now imagine instead of 'sending a message', they thought they would personally profit instead.

Only an idiot. For every idiot betting on one side there is an idiot betting on the other side. The idiots will cancel each other out. The most profitable strategy will always be to bid reasonably close to your true valuation. The smart people will figure this out sooner rather than later.

No, the most profitable strategy will always to bid on the side of who you perceive the losers are and try to lose. Those who do that well will wind up with more money and, as you say, more influence. Those who do poorly will lose money.

This is essentially sports betting, but instead of betting on the winning team, you bet on the losing one because that's how you make your money.

[Xerographica]

$1 for stop.

Because I fully expect Xero not to hold up his end, so at least I'll get my money back.

Up to $2.02. We're getting some real economic value here gentlemen!

So far, me leaving is the most popular option. So if we truly and genuinely used coasianism to determine whether I stay or go... how would you bid? And to be clear, as I stated in the OP, the totals would only be calculated after the last bid was in.

[The Two Jerseys]

It doesn't change the answer - the answer is always to bid against the most supported option, no matter what it is or how good it is.

If everybody bids against the most supported option... the most supported option obviously becomes the least supported option. Imagine a teeter-totter. If everybody jumps on the upside ... what happens? The upside automatically becomes the downside. In order to game coasianism... you have to play chicken with the entire country. It's so ridiculous. Who in their right mind will try and play chicken with the entire country? Only an idiot. For every idiot betting on one side there is an idiot betting on the other side. The idiots will cancel each other out. The most profitable strategy will always be to bid reasonably close to your true valuation. The smart people will figure this out sooner rather than later.

No, the smart people will figure out that once everybody knows how to beat the house, it's time to cash in your chips and go home.

[Galloism]

Up to $2.02. We're getting some real economic value here gentlemen!

So far, me leaving is the most popular option. So if we truly and genuinely used coasianism to determine whether I stay or go... how would you bid? And to be clear, as I stated in the OP, the totals would only be calculated after the last bid was in.

Depends on what I think the bids would be.

If I think you would bid say, $5, I would try to bid at reasonably close to what I think you would bid, minus the other bids from other people, without going over. To leave a margin for error, I would probably bid about $2.50 if this were my presumption. This profits me the most - getting my original $2.50 back plus about $2.60 or so of your money.

If I think you're going to refuse to bid at all, I can be reasonably assured no one is going to bid on your behalf, so the most logical thing would be for me to bid $0.01 on your behalf. This way I get the $2.02 plus my original $0.01 bid.

[Xerographica]

I have no idea if this thread is about sexism, economics, one's choice of clothing, public nudity, self perception, Albert Einstein, self driving cars, handling of one's personal finances, self worth, what I see when I look in the mirror, Uber, or what could have prevented an unspecified civil war.

I went to bed later than usual last night. Stayed up late reading something by Einstein, I think. Before my head finally hit the pillow the last thing I remember was browsing the headlines and noting that Nottinghamshire recently banned wolf whistles. Also, something about Uber.

#EinsteinNottinghamshirewolfwhistleUber

Can't get it out of my head now. Why do I have to get up for work this morning? At least the coffee in the office is strong. Agh, I hate seeing my hair and face in this state. I wonder what would happen if I just never looked into the mirror? Why bother, right? In fact, why don't we all stop looking into the mirror? Nothing there but bad news right? *brush* *brush* *brush*

#EinsteinNottinghamshirewolfwhistleUberwhylookinthemirror

Wow, that is a pretty girl in the lobby this morning. What a fetching green dress. Is she doing us all a favour by walking through our lives? Indeed, walking through our lobby? Is that something you can put a marketable value on? Isn't this whole scenario something James Buchanan once said? Man, I can't remember. I need that coffee!

#EinsteinNottinghamshirewoflwhistleUberwhylookinthemirrorprettywomangreendressvalueJamesBuchanan

Maybe I should talk to her, ask her where she bought that amazing dress. But wait! If I insult her instead, does that mean her value is diminished in any way? I'm so glad I work in sales.

#EinsteinNottinghamshirewoflwhistleUberwhylookinthemirrorprettywomangreendressvalueJamesBuchananinsult?

You know they say in the future we'll be able to communicate and transfer funds using silicon chips in our head. Wouldn't that be amazing? Especially if I could devalue the woman in the green dress without even physically speaking to her. Wait a minute, what happens if somebody sends her money just because they like her dress? Wouldn't that cause her value to go up? That is unless somebody ELSE sends her sends a negative amount of money, thereby canceling out the first amount and thus she actually diminishes in value instead? Oh God, where's that coffee?

#EinsteinNottinghamshirewoflwhistleUberwhylookinthemirrorprettywomangreendressvalueJamesBuchananinsult?electronicchiptransfer

James drank all the coffee. Bastard. I'll just have to steal Frank's cup, he siphoned some from Accounting across the hall.

#EinsteinNottinghamshirewoflwhistleUberwhylookinthemirrorprettywomangreendressvalueJamesBuchananinsult?electronicchiptransfer JamesyouSOB

Frank already drank his coffee. Isn't he going on vacation next week? I heard him say something about a nude beach. I'll bet he'll appreciate seeing Green Dress at a nude beach. They would make such a cute couple. How do people on nude beaches react when attractive individuals go by? Looks like I'm off to Accounting.

#EinsteinNottinghamshirewoflwhistleUberwhylookinthemirrorprettywomangreendressvalueJamesBuchananinsult?electronicchiptransfer JamesyouSOBFranknudebeach

Somebody in Accounting is talking about Uber. Hey, wasn't I reading something about this last night? It's all a jumble though. I think it was about driverless cars. Heyy, if I invest in only driverless cars won't I be saving money? Why haven't I done this yet? COFFEEEEEE...

#EinsteinNottinghamshirewoflwhistleUberwhylookinthemirrorprettywomangreendressvalueJamesBuchananinsult?electronicchiptransfer JamesyouSOBFranknudebeachdriverlesscars

Accounting was all out, too. James is behind this somehow. I know he is. Look at him, with his full cup steaming in the corner. How I long to give him a good hiding, put my fist in that clown arse stupid face of his. Now I have to sit through this meeting with my history buff boss as he babbles something about drawing parallels with the market during the civil war. Mmmmmm, this table surface is so comfy. Let me just get some much-needed rest...

Arrrghh! No, I can't die yet. I must write down all the ingenious ideas I had this morning in one place, where I can find them again. No - I must release them to the world, so it can appreciate my greatness! Why does this feel like the best idea I've ever had?

#EinsteinNottinghamshirewoflwhistleUberwhylookinthemirrorprettywomangreendressvalueJamesBuchananinsult?electronicchiptransfer JamesyouSOBFranknudebeachdriverlesscarscivilwar

>www.nationstates.net

GOOD ENOUGH!

>Submit Topic

Let's see, what's a racy title guaranteed to drum up the number of views?

"NUDE BEACH ECONOMICS"

ZZZzzzzzzzZZZZzzzzzz....

I liked your story. It wasn't wonderful... but it was decent.

[Xerographica]

So far, me leaving is the most popular option. So if we truly and genuinely used coasianism to determine whether I stay or go... how would you bid? And to be clear, as I stated in the OP, the totals would only be calculated after the last bid was in.

Depends on what I think the bids would be.

If I think you would bid say, $5, I would try to bid at reasonably close to what I think you would bid, minus the other bids from other people, without going over. To leave a margin for error, I would probably bid about $2.50 if this were my presumption. This profits me the most - getting my original $2.50 back plus about $2.60 or so of your money.

If I think you're going to refuse to bid at all, I can be reasonably assured no one is going to bid on your behalf, so the most logical thing would be for me to bid $0.01 on your behalf. This way I get the $2.02 plus my original $0.01 bid.

Your bid depends on what you think the bids would be? But you have no idea what I, or anybody else, would actually bid.

[Galloism]

Depends on what I think the bids would be.

If I think you would bid say, $5, I would try to bid at reasonably close to what I think you would bid, minus the other bids from other people, without going over. To leave a margin for error, I would probably bid about $2.50 if this were my presumption. This profits me the most - getting my original $2.50 back plus about $2.60 or so of your money.

If I think you're going to refuse to bid at all, I can be reasonably assured no one is going to bid on your behalf, so the most logical thing would be for me to bid $0.01 on your behalf. This way I get the $2.02 plus my original $0.01 bid.

Your bid depends on what you think the bids would be? But you have no idea what I, or anybody else, would actually bid.

Which is why there will be a certain amount of randomness. Bid speculation will logically cause random policy changes.

... not terribly unlike commodities speculators sometimes do now in the actual market.

Of course, I think a lot will just refuse to play. There's also a lot of patterns in society that smart people can exploit for profit.

[Ethel mermania]

Yes the better the feedback loop, the better targeted becomes the activity in question. whether it is machining ball bearings or teaching second grade math.


that said, i am not sure the point.