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Nude Beach Economics

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

What's your valuation of Uber's decision to go driverless?

-$500
4
14%
-$100
1
3%
-$40
0
No votes
-$20
1
3%
$0
13
45%
$20
4
14%
$40
1
3%
$100
1
3%
$500
4
14%
 
Total votes : 29

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Xerographica
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Posts: 6360
Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Nude Beach Economics

Postby Xerographica » Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:21 pm

When you look into a mirror, how accurately do you want to see yourself? Do you want the mirror to be brutally honest, mildly honest or brutally dishonest? Would you prefer it if the mirror didn't inform you that you have lipstick on your teeth? Would you prefer it if the mirror didn't inform you that you have a big booger hanging from your nose? Would you prefer it if the mirror didn't inform you that your hair really needs to be combed?
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Nottinghamshire recently made wolf-whistling illegal, more or less (see this thread).
If a pretty woman strolls through the hotel lobby many tired convention delegates may get some external benefits, but, presumably, she finds it to her own advantage to stroll, and few delegates would pay her to stroll more than she already does. - James Buchanan, What Should Economists Do?

Samantha strolls through the hotel lobby wearing a green dress. The dress is quite modest but Frank very much enjoys seeing Samantha strolling through the lobby wearing it. Exactly how much benefit does Frank derive from Samantha's behavior? Does it matter?

Let's imagine a sci-fi scenario. Samantha uses the implant in her brain to indicate her feedback preferences. If she prefers brutal honesty then she'll receive all incoming valuations. Frank uses his implant to send $5 dollars to Samantha with a note that says, "nice dress, thanks!". Jane, on the other hand, uses her implant to send -$10 dollars to Samantha with a note that says, "your dress is hideous!". Would their feedback truly be brutally honest though? Frank would have an incentive to downplay his benefit and Jane would have an incentive to exaggerate her cost.

Now let's imagine a no tech, no clothes scenario. Frank and Samantha are at a nude beach. She strolls by wearing absolutely nothing and his appreciation becomes... obvious. Perhaps he might struggle to hide his appreciation.

Uber's decision to go driverless will potentially put their million drivers, and plenty of other drivers, out of work. Let's go back into time and imagine that Uber had opened up the decision to public valuation (aka coasianism).

A. go driverless
B. no driverless

Everybody in the world would have had one day to use their cash to communicate which option they would prefer to be implemented for one year. If Frank preferred the "go driverless" option... then he could have spent his money on that option. If Samantha preferred the "no driverless" option... then she could have spent her money on that option. There wouldn't have been running totals because they might have wrongly encouraged or discouraged participation. The totals would have been calculated as soon as the day was over.

What would the totals have been?

It is impossible for anyone, even if he be a statesman of genius, to weigh the whole community's utility and sacrifice against each other. - Knut Wicksell, A New Principle of Just Taxation

Let's say that the "go driverless" option had received the most money. All the people who spent their money on the "no driverless" option would get a refund. Plus, they'd get all the money spent on the "go driverless" option. Some arbitrary numbers might help...

A. go driverless = $2,457,331
B. no driverless = $787,535

Samantha spent $15 dollars on the "no driverless" option. She'd get her $15 dollars back plus she'd also receive $46.80 dollars.

$15/$787,535 ≈ $46.80/$2,457,331

Let's say that the "no driverless" option had received the most money. Would Uber have been required to choose this option? No... but if Uber didn't do so then the "no driverless" people would have got their money back plus they would have received all the "go driverless" money.

An economist recently wrote an article about Uber. Here was his conclusion...

The real lesson here is an old one, namely that the fight between progress and protection never goes away. Progress is painful to some precisely because it is a big step forward for all the others. - Tyler Cowen, Computing the Social Value of Uber. (It's High.)

Does progress really have to be so painful? When is it beneficial and desirable to see society's cost and benefit? Would an accurate feedback loop have prevented the Civil War?

In my opinion, the more accurate the feedback loop, the more beneficial the behavior.
Last edited by Xerographica on Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Holy Therns
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Father Knows Best State

Postby The Holy Therns » Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:24 pm

Oh, there you are again.
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Xerographica
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Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:29 pm

The Holy Therns wrote:Oh, there you are again.

Your feedback lacks... accuracy.
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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Dushan
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Postby Dushan » Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:31 pm

Martial Nation on a far distant world with SciFi and Fantasy elements.

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This Nation does not use NS stats. When RPing with nation of different TL, we adapt to it.

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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:32 pm

...I have no idea what the premise of this thread is.
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The Holy Therns
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Postby The Holy Therns » Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:35 pm

Xerographica wrote:
The Holy Therns wrote:Oh, there you are again.

Your feedback lacks... accuracy.


No, I'm pretty sure there you are again.
Platitude with attitude
Your new favorite.
MTF transperson. She/her. Lives in Sweden.
Also, N A N A ! ! !
Gallade wrote:Love, cake, wine and banter. No greater meaning to life (〜^∇^)〜

Ethel mermania wrote:to therns is to transend the pettiness of the field of play into the field of dreams.

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Xerographica
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Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:37 pm

The Holy Therns wrote:
Xerographica wrote:Your feedback lacks... accuracy.


No, I'm pretty sure there you are again.

Well yeah... but are you like, "darn!" or "w00t!" or *bleh!*?
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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Xerographica
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Founded: Aug 15, 2012
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Postby Xerographica » Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:41 pm

Vassenor wrote:...I have no idea what the premise of this thread is.

The premise is whether it's beneficial for feedback loops to be more accurate or less accurate.
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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Neanderthaland
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Neanderthaland » Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:45 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Vassenor wrote:...I have no idea what the premise of this thread is.

The premise is whether it's beneficial for feedback loops to be more accurate or less accurate.

Your word choice indicates that you have a horse in this race.

And that you shot the other ones just to be sure.
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Xerographica
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Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:51 pm

Neanderthaland wrote:
Xerographica wrote:The premise is whether it's beneficial for feedback loops to be more accurate or less accurate.

Your word choice indicates that you have a horse in this race.

And that you shot the other ones just to be sure.

You make it sound like I have a bias that I'm sneakily/deviously trying to hide. Most members of this forum are well aware of my bias. Welcome to the forum.
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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Thermodolia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:14 pm

Vassenor wrote:...I have no idea what the premise of this thread is.

I feel like I would have to get an advanced economics degree to understand this
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The TransPecos
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Postby The TransPecos » Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:20 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Vassenor wrote:...I have no idea what the premise of this thread is.

The premise is whether it's beneficial for feedback loops to be more accurate or less accurate.


The only feedback loop in your very long intro is a nude Frank's physical response to a nude Samantha. It contains a controller, a system, and a sensor. I'll let you work out just what is being sensed, how it is being measured and how the measurement causes the system to react, or perhaps remain unchanged. As for the rest, it's decision theory.

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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:25 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Vassenor wrote:...I have no idea what the premise of this thread is.

I feel like I would have to get an advanced economics degree to understand this

Feedback loop? Feedback loop...

In ants, one such behaviour is the collective food search: ants initially explore at random. If they find food, they lay down pheromone trails on their way back to base which alters the behaviour of ants that subsequently set out to search for food: the trails attract ants to areas where food was previously located. - Jo Michell, The Fable of the Ants, or Why the Representative Agent is No Such Thing
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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The Holy Therns
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Founded: Jul 09, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby The Holy Therns » Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:25 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Vassenor wrote:...I have no idea what the premise of this thread is.

I feel like I would have to get an advanced economics degree to understand this


It'll probably wander back to the phrase "tax choice" sooner or later.
Platitude with attitude
Your new favorite.
MTF transperson. She/her. Lives in Sweden.
Also, N A N A ! ! !
Gallade wrote:Love, cake, wine and banter. No greater meaning to life (〜^∇^)〜

Ethel mermania wrote:to therns is to transend the pettiness of the field of play into the field of dreams.

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Xerographica
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:27 pm

The TransPecos wrote:
Xerographica wrote:The premise is whether it's beneficial for feedback loops to be more accurate or less accurate.


The only feedback loop in your very long intro is a nude Frank's physical response to a nude Samantha. It contains a controller, a system, and a sensor. I'll let you work out just what is being sensed, how it is being measured and how the measurement causes the system to react, or perhaps remain unchanged. As for the rest, it's decision theory.

Isn't the Invisible Hand a feedback loop?

It is thus that the private interests and passions of individuals naturally dispose them to turn their stocks towards the employments which in ordinary cases are most advantageous to the society. But if from this natural preference they should turn too much of it towards those employments, the fall of profit in them and the rise of it in all others immediately dispose them to alter this faulty distribution. Without any intervention of law, therefore, the private interests and passions of men naturally lead them to divide and distribute the stock of every society among all the different employments carried on in it as nearly as possible in the proportion which is most agreeable to the interest of the whole society. - Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:29 pm

http://i.imgur.com/g2x3gjy.jpg
Anyway, I mean I rather everyone be aware of facts we don't want to hear then to ignore said facts
The question is which facts
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Thermodolia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:32 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:http://i.imgur.com/g2x3gjy.jpg
Anyway, I mean I rather everyone be aware of facts we don't want to hear then to ignore said facts
The question is which facts

I don't know what the hell is going on here but it's fucking funny
Male, Jewish, lives somewhere in AZ, Disabled US Military Veteran, Oorah!, I'm GAY!
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
Click for Da Funies

RIP Dya

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Galloism
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:33 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Vassenor wrote:...I have no idea what the premise of this thread is.

I feel like I would have to get an advanced economics degree to understand this

If you had an advanced economics degree, you'd probably already be hitting yourself in the face with a tackhammer.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
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New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Thermodolia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:33 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:I feel like I would have to get an advanced economics degree to understand this

Feedback loop? Feedback loop...

In ants, one such behaviour is the collective food search: ants initially explore at random. If they find food, they lay down pheromone trails on their way back to base which alters the behaviour of ants that subsequently set out to search for food: the trails attract ants to areas where food was previously located. - Jo Michell, The Fable of the Ants, or Why the Representative Agent is No Such Thing

And what does this have to do with nude beaches?
Male, Jewish, lives somewhere in AZ, Disabled US Military Veteran, Oorah!, I'm GAY!
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
Click for Da Funies

RIP Dya

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Internationalist Bastard
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Founded: Aug 09, 2015
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:33 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:http://i.imgur.com/g2x3gjy.jpg
Anyway, I mean I rather everyone be aware of facts we don't want to hear then to ignore said facts
The question is which facts

I don't know what the hell is going on here but it's fucking funny

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Call me Alex, I insist
I am a girl, damnit
Slut Pride. So like, real talk, I’m a porn actress. We’re not all bimbos. I do not give out my information or videos to avoid conflict with site policy. I’m happy to talk about the industry or my thoughts on the career but I will not be showing you any goodies. Sorry
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Thermodolia
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Posts: 78486
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:34 pm

Galloism wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:I feel like I would have to get an advanced economics degree to understand this

If you had an advanced economics degree, you'd probably already be hitting yourself in the face with a tackhammer.

You sound like ya know this from experience
Male, Jewish, lives somewhere in AZ, Disabled US Military Veteran, Oorah!, I'm GAY!
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
Click for Da Funies

RIP Dya

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Community Values
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Ex-Nation

Postby Community Values » Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:35 pm

I don't get it. Does a naked Einstein have self esteem issues, so he goes to a nude beach to laugh at all the other fat people?

Does he use an uber to get there?

I'll just respond to what I think I heard.

Driverless ubers would make them a lot less expensive than they are now, plus did you see the things uber drivers did?

Personally, I support the mechanization of labor, since it means massively reduced cost of goods and services, but I'm not sure if a million unemployed people is exactly good for the economy either...
"Corrupted by wealth and power, your government is like a restaurant with only one dish. They've got a set of Republican waiters on one side and a set of Democratic waiters on the other side. But no matter which set of waiters brings you the dish, the legislative grub is all prepared in the same Wall Street kitchen."
-Huey Long

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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:37 pm

Community Values wrote:I don't get it. Does a naked Einstein have self esteem issues, so he goes to a nude beach to laugh at all the other fat people?

Does he use an uber to get there?

I'll just respond to what I think I heard.

Driverless ubers would make them a lot less expensive than they are now, plus did you see the things uber drivers did?

Personally, I support the mechanization of labor, since it means massively reduced cost of goods and services, but I'm not sure if a million unemployed people is exactly good for the economy either...

Yeah no, I've always been the poor, uneducated person here, so let me say, we need jobs, and taking more from is not helping
Call me Alex, I insist
I am a girl, damnit
Slut Pride. So like, real talk, I’m a porn actress. We’re not all bimbos. I do not give out my information or videos to avoid conflict with site policy. I’m happy to talk about the industry or my thoughts on the career but I will not be showing you any goodies. Sorry
“Whatever you are, be a good one” Abe Lincoln

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Galloism
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Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:52 pm

So once again, you ignore all economic principles, and assume people are superrational, when the entire system shows that this is not the case.

If you pay people for losing, you incentivise people to bid on the option they do not want as long as they feel it has overwhelming support to win. I would always bid to bring back slavery, to raise taxes to 100%, to do whatever was the worst possible thing imaginable, because when people choose to bid it down, I get what I want and get paid for the privilege.

We've been over this. The simple result is that people will also realize what I'm doing, see how smart it is, and then we'll have slavery back again and all kinds of other buggery.

EDIT: Incidentally, this has already happened via voting once - except with 'statement sending' being the motivator instead of 'profit'. With Brexit, there were a significant number of voters who voted to LEAVE the EU, not because they really wanted to leave, but because they wanted to send a statement that they were dissatisfied with the status quo, and the polls showed that 'stay' was the smart money. They wanted to make it close in order to tell the government they weren't happy, but they didn't really really want to leave, and if they could go back and do it again, they would vote differently.

Well, heh, turns out that THAT WAS THE FUCKING VOTE. There was an incentive to vote on the losing option for the purposes of 'sending a message'. Under your system, always and forever, there's an incentive to bid on the losing option: whatever it is, and no matter how deplorable it is. Even if it's something like bringing back slavery - especially on things like that - there's a strong incentive to bid on the most deplorable thing ever. You can double your money (or better) easily that way.
Last edited by Galloism on Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Wisconsin9
Post Czar
 
Posts: 35753
Founded: May 18, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Wisconsin9 » Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:04 pm

My two cents say you should stop making these threads.

Like, literally, I will pay you two cents to just not do this anymore.
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