UK Politics Thread V: Upon This Blasted Heath

[Salandriagado]

How is financial assistance or trading commodities to be bought and sold not contributing anything?

You know that mathematics nonsense? I think some tired old professors sitting in a room doing numbers on a whiteboard doesn't really contribute anything. Like the numbers just stay on the whiteboard and he talks about them in some lecture. They don't do anything.

I take offence at this. What kind of self-respecting mathematician uses a whiteboard. Blackboards are clearly superior.

[Ifreann]

You know that mathematics nonsense? I think some tired old professors sitting in a room doing numbers on a whiteboard doesn't really contribute anything. Like the numbers just stay on the whiteboard and he talks about them in some lecture. They don't do anything.

I take offence at this. What kind of self-respecting mathematician uses a whiteboard. Blackboards are clearly superior.

If you're not coated in chalkdust, are you really doing maths?

[The Nihilistic view]

Depends on what department. Investment bankers provide financial assistance to governments and companies. Traders trade shares, oil, commodities etc. Operational investment bankers administer transaction 'back of house' (the front of house investment bankers generate the business). Risk analysts analyse market trends to see what risks threaten assets. Research analysts do research. Lots of things happen.

all to do with numbers that doesn't really produce or contribute to anything then?

I have a broker for example, basically saves me time and money by acting on the instructions I give him so I don't have to be watching the markets all day and then carry out the transactions myself whilst I am in a meeting about my day job or with a prospective accountant for my buisness like I was this afternoon. Among other advice I can take or leave. That is just one type of service offered to people by the industry that has benifits.

[Olivaero]

The financial sector is the most important sector, but at most is only about 10% of our national GDP. Our economy is more diverse than that.

what do financiers even do? I just imagine them moving a series of numbers from one column to another on excel and somehow making a shit load of money.

Basically calculate risk and find interesting ways to sell things that may or may not exist. Some of them manage teams of people that calculate risk, some of them provide means for companies to finance their expansions or manage the sale of assets.

At as more basic level they provide an accounting of companies assets and liabilities and make predictions on these figures. Some of these categories could easily be done without but some of them are fairly vital to understand how a business functions and whether it is worth doing something.

[Souseiseki]

"they help me move my money around" is not the kind of answer that is going to change the minds of people who think moving money around isn't that productive

[Chestaan]

all to do with numbers that doesn't really produce or contribute to anything then?

Considering how much money they add to GDP, they clearly contribute a hell of a lot.

If I paid you €100 million to sit on a chair all day, that would add a lot to GDP also.

[Napkiraly]

but seriously lol at people trying to compare mathematics and financial trading like goddamn

Neither financiers nor professional mathematicians produce anything physical+useful on a day to day basis which is seemingly the requirement to be considered a net contributor.

[Wolfmanne2]

"they help me move my money around" is not the kind of answer that is going to change the minds of people who think moving money around isn't that productive

So if we're going to take that oversimplified point as it it as a good enough reason to 'get rid of bankers', can I take Lamadia's oversimplified points on welfare to make welfare cuts?

[Lamadia 2016]

The financial sector is the most important sector, but at most is only about 10% of our national GDP. Our economy is more diverse than that.

what do financiers even do? I just imagine them moving a series of numbers from one column to another on excel and somehow making a shit load of money.

My dad has been in the financial markets for many, many years, and I can assure you that they do far more than just move numbers from one column to another!
And, considering the financial markets are worth 10% of our GDP, I think they are very important!

[Salandriagado]

but seriously lol at people trying to compare mathematics and financial trading like goddamn

Neither financiers nor professional mathematicians produce anything physical+useful on a day to day basis which is seemingly the requirement to be considered a net contributor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing

[The Nihilistic view]

Considering how much money they add to GDP, they clearly contribute a hell of a lot.

If I paid you €100 million to sit on a chair all day, that would add a lot to GDP also.

But if you paid somebody £100 million (fuck inferior Euros ) to make you £300 million you just increased GDP by more.

[Dooom35796821595]

Considering how much money they add to GDP, they clearly contribute a hell of a lot.

If I paid you €100 million to sit on a chair all day, that would add a lot to GDP also.

If you make it sterling, I'll be fine with that.

[Wolfmanne2]

Neither financiers nor professional mathematicians produce anything physical+useful on a day to day basis which is seemingly the requirement to be considered a net contributor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing

Yes, his Mathematical inventions lead to great things. And investment bankers providing advice on, say, government infrastructure programs, prevent costs from exorbitantly high.

[Chestaan]

but seriously lol at people trying to compare mathematics and financial trading like goddamn

Neither financiers nor professional mathematicians produce anything physical useful on a day to day basis which is seemingly the requirement to be considered a net contributor.

Mathematicians teach skills to students, produce research that is used to create products or increase our understanding of the world. Some (not all) parts of the financial sector enrich some at the expense of others. Trading, for example, is a zero sum game. Whatever I gain you lose and vice versa. It's essentially the same as gambling. It doesn't produce anything, it just moves money from one person to another.

[Wolfmanne2]

Neither financiers nor professional mathematicians produce anything physical useful on a day to day basis which is seemingly the requirement to be considered a net contributor.

Mathematicians teach skills to students, produce research that is used to create products or increase our understanding of the world. Some (not all) parts of the financial sector enrich some at the expense of others. Trading, for example, is a zero sum game. Whatever I gain you lose and vice versa. It's essentially the same as gambling. It doesn't produce anything, it just moves money from one person to another.

The concept of imports and exports is an elitist construct, abolish trade.

[Olivaero]

but seriously lol at people trying to compare mathematics and financial trading like goddamn

Neither financiers nor professional mathematicians produce anything physical+useful on a day to day basis which is seemingly the requirement to be considered a net contributor.

Even the purest of mathematics is looking for solutions to problems, some financiers exist solely to make markets more complicated I don't think they are comparable.

[Chestaan]

If I paid you €100 million to sit on a chair all day, that would add a lot to GDP also.

But if you paid somebody £100 million (fuck inferior Euros ) to make you £300 million you just increased GDP by more.

Depends on how they make the money. If they make it through trading shares on the secondary market they haven't added anything, just moved money from one person's account to another.

[Souseiseki]

but seriously lol at people trying to compare mathematics and financial trading like goddamn

Neither financiers nor professional mathematicians produce anything physical+useful on a day to day basis which is seemingly the requirement to be considered a net contributor.

mathematicians get a pass because >discussing finance on a computer. i'm also not sure that "research" and "trading" are really the same. if there's a mathematical breakthrough it could invent an entire new field off study, if some guy makes a good trade then... some other guy gets more money? wow.

[Chestaan]

Mathematicians teach skills to students, produce research that is used to create products or increase our understanding of the world. Some (not all) parts of the financial sector enrich some at the expense of others. Trading, for example, is a zero sum game. Whatever I gain you lose and vice versa. It's essentially the same as gambling. It doesn't produce anything, it just moves money from one person to another.

The concept of imports and exports is an elitist construct, abolish trade.

Financial trading. We were talking about the financial sector, were we not?

[Wolfmanne2]

Neither financiers nor professional mathematicians produce anything physical+useful on a day to day basis which is seemingly the requirement to be considered a net contributor.

Even the purest of mathematics is looking for solutions to problems, some financiers exist solely to make markets more complicated I don't think they are comparable.

But there is a huge line between 'some financiers do things which are horrible' and 'you know what, everyone who works in finance is lazy and the money they earn is unjustifiable'. In that case we can abolish that sector and not worry about rising infrastructure costs and any other headaches that emerge that'll mean (as a whole) we'll have to pay a lot more for things.

It's like NHS Managers. Sure, we may moan about them (or people may, I think they're cool), but without them the NHS simply wouldn't function. Our economy wouldn't function without a financial sector, let alone one of the world's biggest.

[The Nihilistic view]

Neither financiers nor professional mathematicians produce anything physical useful on a day to day basis which is seemingly the requirement to be considered a net contributor.

Mathematicians teach skills to students, produce research that is used to create products or increase our understanding of the world. Some (not all) parts of the financial sector enrich some at the expense of others. Trading, for example, is a zero sum game. Whatever I gain you lose and vice versa. It's essentially the same as gambling. It doesn't produce anything, it just moves money from one person to another.

It's not a zero sum game in the slightest.

[Napkiraly]

Neither financiers nor professional mathematicians produce anything physical+useful on a day to day basis which is seemingly the requirement to be considered a net contributor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing

I should add in most*

Most mathematicians however spend their time trying refine already discovered theorem's or build off of them to discover new things. Plus teaching students, marking papers, etc if they're working at a university instead of a pure research institution like the CMI.

[Chestaan]

Mathematicians teach skills to students, produce research that is used to create products or increase our understanding of the world. Some (not all) parts of the financial sector enrich some at the expense of others. Trading, for example, is a zero sum game. Whatever I gain you lose and vice versa. It's essentially the same as gambling. It doesn't produce anything, it just moves money from one person to another.

It's not a zero sum game in the slightest.

How is it not? If I make a profit on assets I sold, say shares, where does that money come from? With derivatives such as options and futures this is even more obvious.

It's not the same as investing in a company that has just issued shares. One provides capital to a company where the other is purely speculation.

[Olivaero]

Even the purest of mathematics is looking for solutions to problems, some financiers exist solely to make markets more complicated I don't think they are comparable.

But there is a huge line between 'some financiers do things which are horrible' and 'you know what, everyone who works in finance is lazy and the money they earn is unjustifiable'. In that case we can abolish that sector and not worry about rising infrastructure costs and any other headaches that emerge that'll mean (as a whole) we'll have to pay a lot more for things.

It's like NHS Managers. Sure, we may moan about them (or people may, I think they're cool), but without them the NHS simply wouldn't function. Our economy wouldn't function without a financial sector, let alone one of the world's biggest.

The problem with the financial sector in it's current state is that it's self propagating, Financial professionals do work important jobs alongside the real economy but take for example the Swap

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swap_(finance)

"A swap is a derivative in which two counterparties exchange cash flows of one party's financial instrument for those of the other party's financial instrument. The benefits in question depend on the type of financial instruments involved. For example, in the case of a swap involving two bonds, the benefits in question can be the periodic interest (coupon) payments associated with such bonds. Specifically, two counterparties agree to exchange one stream of cash flows against another stream. These streams are called the legs of the swap. The swap agreement defines the dates when the cash flows are to be paid and the way they are accrued and calculated.[1] Usually at the time when the contract is initiated, at least one of these series of cash flows is determined by an uncertain variable such as a floating interest rate, foreign exchange rate, equity price, or commodity price.[1]

The cash flows are calculated over a notional principal amount. Contrary to a future, a forward or an option, the notional amount is usually not exchanged between counterparties. Consequently, swaps can be in cash or collateral."

A trade based on the income generated by another persons thing for the income generated by your thing. You can't tell me that this is a vital part of society. It was constructed as a device to just make money, nothing else. Not provide a service that some one would give you money for but to just get money without providing anything of your own apart from something you bought from some one else. This is what people hate when they think of financiers. Not the principle that there are numbers involved in running a company (Unless they are literal communists of course) but the fact that this intangible shit exists seemingly solely for people to make money by doing very little.

[Chestaan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing

I should add in most*

Most mathematicians however spend their time trying refine already discovered theorem's or build off of them to discover new things. Plus teaching students, marking papers, etc if they're working at a university instead of a pure research institution like the CMI.

Which undeniably adds value through increasing knowledge and human capital and providing the means for advancements in various fields.

If I am trading options, where is the value produced?