EU Commission Forces Apple To Pay €13bn in Tax

[Risottia]

I always find it off that the EU has the authority to tell the Irish govnerment what the Irish tax code means.

Do you also find it off that the US have the authority to tell the Nebraska government what the tax code means? Because that's what being in an Union regulated by treatises and laws means.

[Greed and Death]

Ok, so that everyone knows what's going on, Apple had established what was called a double Irish with a dutch sandwich.

The details are very complicated, but basically, by they could establish that all their profits were Irish profits in one country, but not Irish profits in Ireland, and therefore pay little to no tax. Ireland closed the loophole that caused this, but allowed companies with established double irish plans to continue to use it (and get the benefits thereof) until 2020.

This was merely a shifting of money around on paper and had no particular financial or economic consequence. It was merely to evade tax.

This probably wouldn't have drawn EU commission ire EXCEPT for the grandfather clause to 2020. Now new companies can't effectively compete on the same level against established companies who were already avoiding the tax. This was then considered a state subsidy because it was effectively favoring some companies over others.

Now, they've gone back even before the change in law, but that is largely because non-tech companies or tech companies without legal teams the size of Paris couldn't use it, and this set them at a competitive disadvantage.

IT is tax avoidance not evasion, avoidance is legal, evasion gets illegal.

[Greed and Death]

I always find it off that the EU has the authority to tell the Irish govnerment what the Irish tax code means.

Do you also find it off that the US have the authority to tell the Nebraska government what the tax code means? Because that's what being in an Union regulated by treatises and laws means.

The US govnerment does not get to tell the state of Nebraska what the Nebraska tax code means. Nebraskan courts have final authority on interpreting Nebraskan laws, tax laws included. The only time the Federal govnerment gets to override Nebraska is if there is a conflict with a federal law, or with the federal Constitution.

[Risottia]

The US govnerment does not get to tell the state of Nebraska what the Nebraska tax code means. Nebraskan courts have final authority on interpreting Nebraskan laws, tax laws included. The only time the Federal govnerment gets to override Nebraska is if there is a conflict with a federal law, or with the federal Constitution.

Exactly what's happening in Ireland. There's a conflict between the EU treatises and directives, and what the Irish government has done, about a matter which is indeed under Union regulation as per treatises signed by Ireland.

[Jordkloden]

This is good.

[Geilinor]

It seems that the EU has abandoned all pretense to supporting free markets, and itstead support trying to block off outside competition.

Actually, in this case, Ireland gave Apple special benefits that Apple's competitors don't receive. That's not the free market.

[Galloism]

Ok, so that everyone knows what's going on, Apple had established what was called a double Irish with a dutch sandwich.

The details are very complicated, but basically, by they could establish that all their profits were Irish profits in one country, but not Irish profits in Ireland, and therefore pay little to no tax. Ireland closed the loophole that caused this, but allowed companies with established double irish plans to continue to use it (and get the benefits thereof) until 2020.

This was merely a shifting of money around on paper and had no particular financial or economic consequence. It was merely to evade tax.

This probably wouldn't have drawn EU commission ire EXCEPT for the grandfather clause to 2020. Now new companies can't effectively compete on the same level against established companies who were already avoiding the tax. This was then considered a state subsidy because it was effectively favoring some companies over others.

Now, they've gone back even before the change in law, but that is largely because non-tech companies or tech companies without legal teams the size of Paris couldn't use it, and this set them at a competitive disadvantage.

IT is tax avoidance not evasion, avoidance is legal, evasion gets illegal.

That depends doesn't it?

If the EU commission is right, then it was illegal because the underlying laws themselves were illegal on the basis of the EU treaties. It's therefore tax evasion (retroactively).

If the EU commission is wrong, and it's all perfectly legal, then it's tax avoidance.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Ok, this is fine. Corporation didn't pay its taxes, now It has to pay its proper tax.

[Dooom35796821595]

What I also find amusing is that Ireland is going to try and appeal, and support Apple's tax evasion efforts.

Probably because they want to give more money to greedy corporations over you know...spending money on human beings or people in poverty.

Weird government these Irish have put in power, but not as weird as the US one though.

Ireland is likely right they just have really low corporate profit taxes that they allowed to be offshore easily and they are legal so long as they apply to all corporations. It is also not surprising as when the recession hit a large part of the base of income earners that kept Ireland afloat was the professionals foreign corporations hire in Ireland to maintain their tax structures.



Worth pointing out the US is also objecting to this and is threatening WTO and retaliatory sanctions if the ruling stands.

Bull. The US may be upset, but they're not going to do anything over the EU forcing Ireland to follow proper laws.

[Imperializt Russia]

Fighting against receiving a €13 billion payment is possibly the funniest thing this nation's government has ever done.

I think the Beeb said it was basically your entire welfare budget or something.

[Imperializt Russia]

Ok, this is fine. Corporation didn't pay its taxes, now It has to pay its proper tax.

Apple is arguing it did pay its taxes, as they negotiated a deal with the Irish government to pay about five-thousandths of a percent in corporation tax, in contrast to the traditional rate of 15,000 thousandths of a percent.

Which, as you rightly said, means they weren't paying their proper tax.

[Frank Zipper]

Apple are throwing a bit of an ipaddy.

[Frank Zipper]

I always find it off that the EU has the authority to tell the Irish govnerment what the Irish tax code means.

I find it a bit off that the US Government thinks it has the authority to tell the EU what its tax rules should be.

[Vassenor]

Apple are throwing a bit of an ipaddy.

YOU GO SIT IN THE CORNER AND THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU DID.

[Ifreann]

Fighting against receiving a €13 billion payment is possibly the funniest thing this nation's government has ever done.

I think the Beeb said it was basically your entire welfare budget or something.

Close. We expect to spend €19.6ish billion on social welfare this year.

---

Apple are throwing a bit of an ipaddy.

As it happens I'm listening to the radio at the moment, and the last piece was about back-to-school costs. A complaint people have is that schools are increasingly requiring that students have iPads, and the things aren't cheap. Someone text in to suggest that Apple could donate iPads to the schoolchildren of Ireland, to pay us back for their tax shenanigans. Someone else then text in to point out that to cover the €13 billion they owe us, Apple would have to give every man, woman, and child in Ireland close to 3,000 iPads each.

[Imperializt Russia]

I think the Beeb said it was basically your entire welfare budget or something.

Close. We expect to spend €19.6ish billion on social welfare this year.

Oh, two thirds then.

The Beeb comparisons were two thirds of something (apparently welfare) and approximate to the entire budget of something else you do.

[Imperializt Russia]

Apple are throwing a bit of an ipaddy.

As it happens I'm listening to the radio at the moment, and the last piece was about back-to-school costs. A complaint people have is that schools are increasingly requiring that students have iPads, and the things aren't cheap. Someone text in to suggest that Apple could donate iPads to the schoolchildren of Ireland, to pay us back for their tax shenanigans. Someone else then text in to point out that to cover the €13 billion they owe us, Apple would have to give every man, woman, and child in Ireland close to 3,000 iPads each.

Yeah, but think about how heavily you could undercut Amazon UK with that kind of cheap stock!

[Ifreann]

Close. We expect to spend €19.6ish billion on social welfare this year.

Oh, two thirds then.

The Beeb comparisons were two thirds of something (apparently welfare) and approximate to the entire budget of something else you do.

If we do get forced to take this money(this fucking country, honestly), the next problem will be deciding which department gets it.

---

As it happens I'm listening to the radio at the moment, and the last piece was about back-to-school costs. A complaint people have is that schools are increasingly requiring that students have iPads, and the things aren't cheap. Someone text in to suggest that Apple could donate iPads to the schoolchildren of Ireland, to pay us back for their tax shenanigans. Someone else then text in to point out that to cover the €13 billion they owe us, Apple would have to give every man, woman, and child in Ireland close to 3,000 iPads each.

Yeah, but think about how heavily you could undercut Amazon UK with that kind of cheap stock!

We could solve the homelessness problem by building houses out of iPads

[Frank Zipper]

Yeah, but think about how heavily you could undercut Amazon UK with that kind of cheap stock!

Though don't Amazon have a similar deal to Apple's with Ireland?

[Imperializt Russia]

Yeah, but think about how heavily you could undercut Amazon UK with that kind of cheap stock!

Though don't Amazon have a similar deal to Apple's with Ireland?

Shush, or the Irish government might have to accept further ridiculous quantities of money.

[The Alma Mater]

It seems that the EU has abandoned all pretense to supporting free markets, and itstead support trying to block off outside competition.

Giving specific companies subsidies competing companies do not get is "free market" now ?

[Chestaan]

Previously there had been talk that Ireland would only be able to use this money to pay down the national debt, but it turns out that this is not the case. It can be used to fund education, health or whatever the hell we want. This can only strengthen the position of those who are calling for this money to be taken, rather than appealing the ruling.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/econ ... -1.2774229

[Imperializt Russia]

What's the public opinion of the government in the RoI? Is it a government that's seen as having always taken a really soft line on corporate taxes whilst hounding those on benefits, a hard pro-austerity government?

Does such a ridiculous deal as Apple's sound about right for the government there?

[Galloism]

Previously there had been talk that Ireland would only be able to use this money to pay down the national debt, but it turns out that this is not the case. It can be used to fund education, health or whatever the hell we want. This can only strengthen the position of those who are calling for this money to be taken, rather than appealing the ruling.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/econ ... -1.2774229

TBH, a restriction on using it to pay the national debt is pretty much meaningless anyway.

You can then use your improved position to borrow more money for whatever the hell you want.

[Chestaan]

What's the public opinion of the government in the RoI? Is it a government that's seen as having always taken a really soft line on corporate taxes whilst hounding those on benefits, a hard pro-austerity government?

Does such a ridiculous deal as Apple's sound about right for the government there?

I'm 22, and as far back as I can remember a big policy of all the governments has been a very low corporate tax with quite lax regulations on that tax actually being collected. The whole "Double Irish" is an example of that. Most people I have talked to realise that successive governments have been very easy on corporations, bending over backwards to get them into the country. Generally I wouldn't say that the government is very harsh on those on benefits, because for years we had so much money, especially coming from the construction sector, that the government was just throwing money around in an effort to boost their number of votes. However, and this is important, when the shit hit the fan it was the poor and needy that were the ones that were forced to take the hit. Benefits were slashed, taxes were raised and services were cut. No changes were made to corporation tax and businesses were not asked to contribute at all. This was especially frustrating as the main cause of our crisis was not sovereign debt but bailing out the banks. There's huge resentment towards the banking sector and the government which bailed them out and enforced austerity on the population in order to pay for the mistakes of banks and pay for the bonds held by German, French and other nations' banks.

The last election two elections were significant because the two parties which have held power since the foundation of the state combined now make up a lower proportion of the parliament than they ever have, now collectively holding just slightly over 50%.

Edit: I don't think anyone is surprised that the government made such a deal with Apple. If anything people are thinking that more such dodgy deals are probably in place.