EU Commission Forces Apple To Pay €13bn in Tax

[The Liberated Territories]

It seems that the EU has abandoned all pretense to supporting free markets, and itstead support trying to block off outside competition.

[Internationalist Bastard]

And? Looms like standard regulation on my end

[Internationalist Bastard]

It seems that the EU has abandoned all pretense to supporting free markets, and itstead support trying to block off outside competition.

How'd you get that? Apple exploited the hell out of something to avoid paying taxes, and the EU chooses to fine the hell out of Apple

[Dooom35796821595]

It seems that the EU has abandoned all pretense to supporting free markets, and itstead support trying to block off outside competition.

How'd you get that? Apple exploited the hell out of something to avoid paying taxes, and the EU chooses to fine the hell out of Apple

And Ireland fights against a massive gain to their national coffers. Seems like they need a new government.

[Internationalist Bastard]

How'd you get that? Apple exploited the hell out of something to avoid paying taxes, and the EU chooses to fine the hell out of Apple

And Ireland fights against a massive gain to their national coffers. Seems like they need a new government.

I dunno, all this seems like standard regulation to prevent a monopoly

[Serconas]

It seems that the EU has abandoned all pretense to supporting free markets, and itstead support trying to block off outside competition.

Apple getting a free pass on taxes by the Irish government is helping competition in what way?
The EU (Commission) is trying to enforce the same standards on Apple that apply to all other companies. Or have I missed something?

[Internationalist Bastard]

It seems that the EU has abandoned all pretense to supporting free markets, and itstead support trying to block off outside competition.

Apple getting a free pass on taxes by the Irish government is helping competition in what way?
The EU (Commission) is trying to enforce the same standards on Apple that apply to all other companies. Or have I missed something?

I mean that's what I saw

[Dooom35796821595]

And Ireland fights against a massive gain to their national coffers. Seems like they need a new government.

I dunno, all this seems like standard regulation to prevent a monopoly

A monopoly in what? Apple is in no way a monopoly.

[Internationalist Bastard]

I dunno, all this seems like standard regulation to prevent a monopoly

A monopoly in what? Apple is in no way a monopoly.

Yeah, but I'm saying that the deal was giving Apple an an advantage. Unless I read it wrong, that looks like an agency stepping in and trying to level the playing field.

[Serconas]

I dunno, all this seems like standard regulation to prevent a monopoly

A monopoly in what? Apple is in no way a monopoly.

It could have one in Ireland if the government chooses to exempt them from more regulations.

[Dooom35796821595]

A monopoly in what? Apple is in no way a monopoly.

Yeah, but I'm saying that the deal was giving Apple an an advantage. Unless I read it wrong, that looks like an agency stepping in and trying to level the playing field.

I think it's hard to tell without more infomation, but Ireland seems to give similar tax breaks to any sufficiently large corporation. So is this targeting a specific company, or will other such fines follow?

[Dooom35796821595]

A monopoly in what? Apple is in no way a monopoly.

It could have one in Ireland if the government chooses to exempt them from more regulations.

Hardly, it'd just have an uncompetitive tax advantage. Microsoft is more a monopoly then Apple, something that I don't think has been properly addressed yet.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Yeah, but I'm saying that the deal was giving Apple an an advantage. Unless I read it wrong, that looks like an agency stepping in and trying to level the playing field.

I think it's hard to tell without more infomation, but Ireland seems to give similar tax breaks to any sufficiently large corporation. So is this targeting a specific company, or will other such fines follow?

Probably. Such a policy screws over an attempt to form new businesses.

[Ifreann]

Yeah, but I'm saying that the deal was giving Apple an an advantage. Unless I read it wrong, that looks like an agency stepping in and trying to level the playing field.

I think it's hard to tell without more infomation, but Ireland seems to give similar tax breaks to any sufficiently large corporation. So is this targeting a specific company, or will other such fines follow?

It's not a fine, it's unpaid taxes.

[Dooom35796821595]

I think it's hard to tell without more infomation, but Ireland seems to give similar tax breaks to any sufficiently large corporation. So is this targeting a specific company, or will other such fines follow?

It's not a fine, it's unpaid taxes.

Does the EU have the authority to chase down back-taxes? I would have thought that would be the responsibility of the national government.

[Serconas]

It could have one in Ireland if the government chooses to exempt them from more regulations.

Hardly, it'd just have an uncompetitive tax advantage. Microsoft is more a monopoly then Apple, something that I don't think has been properly addressed yet.

The money Apple isn´t spending on taxes is instead spend on opening new Apple stores, ad campaigns and development of new products. 13.5 billion € in fact.
Other companies, such as Microsoft, in Ireland have to pay these taxes because they´ve no exclusive back-hand deal with the government.

[Dooom35796821595]

Hardly, it'd just have an uncompetitive tax advantage. Microsoft is more a monopoly then Apple, something that I don't think has been properly addressed yet.

The money Apple isn´t spending on taxes is instead spend on opening new Apple stores, ad campaigns and development of new products. 13.5 billion € in fact.
Other companies, such as Microsoft, in Ireland have to pay these taxes because they´ve no exclusive back-hand deal with the government.

Are you sure that other companies don't have similar deals in place?

Also, it seems like action should be taken against Ireland, since they're the ones allowing this.

[Galloism]

Ok, so that everyone knows what's going on, Apple had established what was called a double Irish with a dutch sandwich.

The details are very complicated, but basically, by they could establish that all their profits were Irish profits in one country, but not Irish profits in Ireland, and therefore pay little to no tax. Ireland closed the loophole that caused this, but allowed companies with established double irish plans to continue to use it (and get the benefits thereof) until 2020.

This was merely a shifting of money around on paper and had no particular financial or economic consequence. It was merely to evade tax.

This probably wouldn't have drawn EU commission ire EXCEPT for the grandfather clause to 2020. Now new companies can't effectively compete on the same level against established companies who were already avoiding the tax. This was then considered a state subsidy because it was effectively favoring some companies over others.

Now, they've gone back even before the change in law, but that is largely because non-tech companies or tech companies without legal teams the size of Paris couldn't use it, and this set them at a competitive disadvantage.

I've also heard something about Apple having registered a company that doesn't have any real location. They routed their profits through this non-existent company which doesn't have to pay taxes as its not resident in any country. Is that the case or have I taken it up wrong?

Well... every company has a location on paper if by location you mean "country". However, the company without a location you've heard about I believe is the Dutch company - it has no building, no employees, and only exists on paper to move money without economic purpose.

[Serconas]

The money Apple isn´t spending on taxes is instead spend on opening new Apple stores, ad campaigns and development of new products. 13.5 billion € in fact.
Other companies, such as Microsoft, in Ireland have to pay these taxes because they´ve no exclusive back-hand deal with the government.

Are you sure that other companies don't have similar deals in place?

Also, it seems like action should be taken against Ireland, since they're the ones allowing this.

It could be possible, that other companies have similar deals, yes.

Against the politicians who crafted the deal, as they seem to have taken bribes. But Apple should at least have to repay the taxes they havn´t paid.

[Chestaan]

I've also heard something about Apple having registered a company that doesn't have any real location. They routed their profits through this non-existent company which doesn't have to pay taxes as its not resident in any country. Is that the case or have I taken it up wrong?

Well... every company has a location on paper if by location you mean "country". However, the company without a location you've heard about I believe is the Dutch company - it has no building, no employees, and only exists on paper to move money without economic purpose.

Ah ok, that makes sense now. Thanks!

[Chestaan]

The money Apple isn´t spending on taxes is instead spend on opening new Apple stores, ad campaigns and development of new products. 13.5 billion € in fact.
Other companies, such as Microsoft, in Ireland have to pay these taxes because they´ve no exclusive back-hand deal with the government.

Are you sure that other companies don't have similar deals in place?

Also, it seems like action should be taken against Ireland, since they're the ones allowing this.

Well other EU nations are allowed to make a claim for a portion if the tax. So I suppose Ireland is being punished by not receiving part of the taxes that are due to it.

[Ifreann]

It's not a fine, it's unpaid taxes.

Does the EU have the authority to chase down back-taxes? I would have thought that would be the responsibility of the national government.

It is the responsibility of the Irish government. The Commission's finding is that the Irish government have been taxing Apple less than they should have been, and the Irish government is being told to stop doing that and tax Apple properly, which would entail chasing down €13 billion in back-taxes.

[Greed and Death]

What I also find amusing is that Ireland is going to try and appeal, and support Apple's tax evasion efforts.

Probably because they want to give more money to greedy corporations over you know...spending money on human beings or people in poverty.

Weird government these Irish have put in power, but not as weird as the US one though.

Ireland is likely right they just have really low corporate profit taxes that they allowed to be offshore easily and they are legal so long as they apply to all corporations. It is also not surprising as when the recession hit a large part of the base of income earners that kept Ireland afloat was the professionals foreign corporations hire in Ireland to maintain their tax structures.



Worth pointing out the US is also objecting to this and is threatening WTO and retaliatory sanctions if the ruling stands.

[Greed and Death]

Does the EU have the authority to chase down back-taxes? I would have thought that would be the responsibility of the national government.

It is the responsibility of the Irish government. The Commission's finding is that the Irish government have been taxing Apple less than they should have been, and the Irish government is being told to stop doing that and tax Apple properly, which would entail chasing down €13 billion in back-taxes.

I always find it off that the EU has the authority to tell the Irish govnerment what the Irish tax code means.

[Risottia]

It seems that the EU has abandoned all pretense to supporting free markets, and itstead support trying to block off outside competition.

So, according to you, "free market" means "a huge corporation and a government cheat other corporations and other governments by cutting a deal granting the corporation an unfair advantage over the competition and other countries, and by causing the citizens of that same country to face austerity to pay for corporate welfare".

Interesting. Must be the differences between British English and American, I guess.