Income Inequality and Decadence

[The New Sea Territory]

So you think that the system is unfair. Okay, sure, let's assume that Capitalism is a complete failure (it isn't) and that rich people don't "deserve" their money (varies with the circumstances, in my opinion).

So what do you want to do? You want to "redistribute" wealth (hint: it's called stealing). Basically, you want to take money from rich people and give it to poor people, since apparently the rich people "stole" it from poor people by, in most cases, having the poor people voluntarily pay them for a product. Before you cry, "But they only buy it because they're forced too!", well, sorry to burst your bubble, but they're not. They have this thing called options, thanks to capitalism. If they don't like the way a certain company is treating, them they can take their money elsewhere, unlike in the ideal socialist/communist country, where the government controls everything and people are essentially forced to buy it.

Thus, the axioms of your logic are:

1. Since rich people got rich by making a product that people pay money to get, that is stealing.

2. We should steal from rich people and give the money to poor people (after 95% of that money goes to the government's pocket, I might add)

3. Poor people are poor because rich people "exploited" them (essentially, the rich people pay the poor people to work and make a product, which is then sold to poor people, who voluntarily give money to get that product. The rich people sell the product for a higher price than it takes to make the product, creating something called profit. [by the way, if you think that the business makes too much profit, then take your business elsewhere!] )

4. Rich people stealing from poor people is wrong (by having them voluntarily give them money), but poor people stealing from rich people (by having the government forcibly take their money) is right.

5. The government decides what is "fair." (All I need to say is this: If you think rich people are so corrupt, then why are you entrusting the concept of what is "fair" to a bunch of people at the top, rather than letting people essentially vote with their money through options?)

I see NO flaws in that argument AT ALL

My Gott, pure ideology!

[Free People of the World]

Doesn't change the truth of a single thing I said.

Your post was based around criticizing welfare, wealth retribution, and theft (ignoring that both sides, poor and rich steal, the latter through surplus labor) in the capitalist system. You're more or less arguing against regulated capitalism.

Which is fine. Every system needs to be looked at in a skeptical manner, criticized, and debated. However, what you were arguing against again is regulated capitalism, or the various names applied to it (Social Democracy, etc.). If you want to criticize Socialism as an economic system, and Communism and it's inevitable political system, then please do so, but actually attack them instead of what among conflate as high taxes + welfare = socialism (when in reality that certainly is not Socialism).

No, I'm criticizing socialism and communism. And from what I've seen of both, they both pretty much equate to "take from rich people, give to poor people"

[The New Sea Territory]

Your post was based around criticizing welfare, wealth retribution, and theft (ignoring that both sides, poor and rich steal, the latter through surplus labor) in the capitalist system. You're more or less arguing against regulated capitalism.

Which is fine. Every system needs to be looked at in a skeptical manner, criticized, and debated. However, what you were arguing against again is regulated capitalism, or the various names applied to it (Social Democracy, etc.). If you want to criticize Socialism as an economic system, and Communism and it's inevitable political system, then please do so, but actually attack them instead of what among conflate as high taxes + welfare = socialism (when in reality that certainly is not Socialism).

No, I'm criticizing socialism and communism. And from what I've seen of both, they both pretty much equate to "take from rich people, give to poor people"

Socialism = social ownership of the means of production. This says nothing about taxation.

Sure, we socialists want to take from the rich, but only what they rich stole from everyone else, when land was first commodified and common ownership was negated: property. I don't care about taxation.

[The New Sea Territory]

Doesn't change the truth of a single thing I said.

You're right, because there was no truth in what you said to begin with!

[Pandeeria]

Your post was based around criticizing welfare, wealth retribution, and theft (ignoring that both sides, poor and rich steal, the latter through surplus labor) in the capitalist system. You're more or less arguing against regulated capitalism.

Which is fine. Every system needs to be looked at in a skeptical manner, criticized, and debated. However, what you were arguing against again is regulated capitalism, or the various names applied to it (Social Democracy, etc.). If you want to criticize Socialism as an economic system, and Communism and it's inevitable political system, then please do so, but actually attack them instead of what among conflate as high taxes + welfare = socialism (when in reality that certainly is not Socialism).

No, I'm criticizing socialism and communism. And from what I've seen of both, they both pretty much equate to "take from rich people, give to poor people"

Then what you've seen is definitely not socialism or communism, but band-aided capitalism.

[Free People of the World]

No, I'm criticizing socialism and communism. And from what I've seen of both, they both pretty much equate to "take from rich people, give to poor people"

Then what you've seen is definitely not socialism or communism, but band-aided capitalism.

How is this ANYTHING like Capitalism?

Doesn't change the truth of a single thing I said.

You're right, because there was no truth in what you said to begin with!

Before you resort to insults such as that, please figure out what the discussion is about. Then come back with an actual point to make, and evidence.

No, I'm criticizing socialism and communism. And from what I've seen of both, they both pretty much equate to "take from rich people, give to poor people"

Socialism = social ownership of the means of production. This says nothing about taxation.

Sure, we socialists want to take from the rich, but only what they rich stole from everyone else, when land was first commodified and common ownership was negated: property. I don't care about taxation.

When did I say anything about taxation? I'm talking about the government unlawfully taking money from people just because they are rich (of course, I'm basing this off of an ideal flat tax system, so your definition of fair taxation may be different)
How is owning property stealing? People pay other people to acquire the property that they don't have. It's exactly the same as in other markets.

[Mattopilos]

When did I say anything about taxation? I'm talking about the government unlawfully taking money from people just because they are rich (of course, I'm basing this off of an ideal flat tax system, so your definition of fair taxation may be different)
How is owning property stealing? People pay other people to acquire the property that they don't have. It's exactly the same as in other markets.

Well, NST isn't for government anyway, so I don't see the point there. Also, the amount that the rich have 'taken away' from them is not that much compared to what they make, which is huge compared to the work they do.
Owning property on its own isn't stealing, but we also aren't for markets, so...

[The New Sea Territory]

Then come back with an actual point to make, and evidence.

....

[Pandeeria]

Then what you've seen is definitely not socialism or communism, but band-aided capitalism.

How is this ANYTHING like Capitalism?

Capitalism is defined as the means of production being owned by a private entity, such as a person, often termed as a "Capitalist".

[The New Sea Territory]

When did I say anything about taxation? I'm talking about the government unlawfully taking money from people just because they are rich (of course, I'm basing this off of an ideal flat tax system, so your definition of fair taxation may be different)

The government defines law itself. Law is simply the projection of state power into the ethical realm.

How is owning property stealing? People pay other people to acquire the property that they don't have. It's exactly the same as in other markets.

What did the person who first owned the property do to acquire it? He took land that was accessible by everyone, open to all, unowned, commonly owned....and declared it his. That's theft.