Is Cultural Appropriation Real?

[Minzerland]

Yes, but I don't see it as a negative thing.

[New Edom]

Actually, either Mexican descended people are part of a society or they're not, if we're talking about ones who live in the United States for instance. So there has to be some common ground about what respect means. If you're welcomed into a community, their standards matter as well as those of the people they ahve welcomed, and that common ground can ideally build a stronger community. But it's not wise to just have some group say "Oh we're offended about this and that" and have the dominant group told they must just accept whatever is said.

Then who does get to make that decision, if not the people within the culture itself?

Well unless it's overtly the kind of prejudice that would deprive people of human rights, but just could be even admiration of said culture in some way, then I think it should be a fair back and forth conversation. We're not talking about whether or not racism is bad, I think we both agree on that, but expressing admiration or interest? Surely that should be a fair back and forth conversation.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Then who does get to make that decision, if not the people within the culture itself?

Well unless it's overtly the kind of prejudice that would deprive people of human rights, but just could be even admiration of said culture in some way, then I think it should be a fair back and forth conversation. We're not talking about whether or not racism is bad, I think we both agree on that, but expressing admiration or interest? Surely that should be a fair back and forth conversation.

There's something to be said for that. I'm essentially with Dakini on this, in that it's all about context. However, I think that it's fair to say that the people within a culture would generally have a good handle on these things, so my thought is that it's usually better to defer to them.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Yeah i think it exists, but not necessarily as a bad thing, cultures rub off each other and influence each other all the time, it happens and also shows that people have experienced new cultures and want to adopt part of it as they like it. I think it depends on the context of each case i guess though as sometimes it could be negative, if it was done in a derogatory manner or something.

[Zottistan]

I'm of the opinion that culture is something that occurs on an individual level, and actually sharing a culture on any level beyond the aesthetic (and possibly not even that) is impossible. Japanese mythology viewed through a western eye will be coloured differently than through a Japanese eye, just as viewing it through one Japanese eye will give a different tint than another.

So no, I wouldn't say cultural appropriation exists. Only development of individual human "cultures".

[ImperialistSalvia]

Short answer? No

[Asaland and The Asish Isles]

Of course not.

[SUNTHREIT]

Cultural appropriation, the appropriation of aspects of foreign cultures, is definitely real. People all over the world have done it for 1000s of years, there's nothing wrong with it.

[Kalosia]

Kinda? Depends on the context really.

I read somewhere that the logic behind cultural appropriation is similar to wearing an authentic high-ranking military badge as if it was legitimately yours, when it's not. Some people would find that really disrespectful to veterans who risked their lives in order to deserve that honour, yet someone puts it on as if it's nothing.

Perhaps it depends on the value a cultural group puts on it. In the end whether or not something is considered an offensive appropriation of their culture is up to them. The Japanese apparently don't mind the fetishization of their culture (remember Avril Lavigne?) while Mexicans may have problems with those trying to capitalize off Day of the Dead as if it's just a second Halloween — the two, as far as I know, don't hold the same value in their cultural groups that they belong to.

Oh but like, enjoying basic everyday things of another culture, like food or maybe music, that's completely fine of course.

[New Edom]

Well unless it's overtly the kind of prejudice that would deprive people of human rights, but just could be even admiration of said culture in some way, then I think it should be a fair back and forth conversation. We're not talking about whether or not racism is bad, I think we both agree on that, but expressing admiration or interest? Surely that should be a fair back and forth conversation.

There's something to be said for that. I'm essentially with Dakini on this, in that it's all about context. However, I think that it's fair to say that the people within a culture would generally have a good handle on these things, so my thought is that it's usually better to defer to them.

I disagree. I straddle two cultures in background so I've given this a lot of thought. It's far better to have a general standard for how people in general ought to be treated. When I see people sucking up to others when they're from the dominant culture, I tend to think that unless the offenses they're focusing on are holding people back, it's worthless.

Of course I'm a pretty unsentimental person. A lot of other people need for some reason to have a lot of emotional hurdles before they really feel sympathy, and I tend to prefer principles and values.

[Lies and Ignorance]

It's a pretty well established byproduct of colonialism dating back to Columbus. Colonial conquerors crib practices, ideas, and aesthetics that they find charming or quaint, and build up a repertoire of stolen goods and artefacts from the civilizations they tear down. When capitalism came into being, and colonialism transformed into imperialism, conquerors no longer simply stole artefacts, they put them up for sale. Everything in the colonized culture is monetized, even aesthetics, and rich colonizers and tourists pay good money for an 'authentic' experience of culture. India, Algeria, China, Korea, you name it, are made into muses for the colonial imagination, host cultures for the colonial parasite to enjoy and discard at will. "Cultural appropriation" is just a trendy new name for an old practice. The land, products, and people of colonized nations are treated as resources for commercial exploitation, so why should their culture be any different?

[Luminesa]

It's a pretty well established byproduct of colonialism dating back to Columbus. Colonial conquerors crib practices, ideas, and aesthetics that they find charming or quaint, and build up a repertoire of stolen goods and artefacts from the civilizations they tear down. When capitalism came into being, and colonialism transformed into imperialism, conquerors no longer simply stole artefacts, they put them up for sale. Everything in the colonized culture is monetized, even aesthetics, and rich colonizers and tourists pay good money for an 'authentic' experience of culture. India, Algeria, China, Korea, you name it, are made into muses for the colonial imagination, host cultures for the colonial parasite to enjoy and discard at will. "Cultural appropriation" is just a trendy new name for an old practice. The land, products, and people of colonized nations are treated as resources for commercial exploitation, so why should their culture be any different?

Here's a challenge for you, then. I challenge you to get rid of everything in your house that says, "Made in China."

[Lies and Ignorance]

Here's a challenge for you, then. I challenge you to get rid of everything in your house that says, "Made in China."

Wow what a zinger

[Yumyumsuppertime]

There's something to be said for that. I'm essentially with Dakini on this, in that it's all about context. However, I think that it's fair to say that the people within a culture would generally have a good handle on these things, so my thought is that it's usually better to defer to them.

I disagree. I straddle two cultures in background so I've given this a lot of thought. It's far better to have a general standard for how people in general ought to be treated. When I see people sucking up to others when they're from the dominant culture, I tend to think that unless the offenses they're focusing on are holding people back, it's worthless.

Of course I'm a pretty unsentimental person. A lot of other people need for some reason to have a lot of emotional hurdles before they really feel sympathy, and I tend to prefer principles and values.

It's really not so much a matter of sentimentality to me as it is a desire to not come across as a dick so long as there's no particular reason to do so (Not that I'm always successful in this endeavor, as people have seen in some of my snippier replies here). I'm not going to wear a war bonnet for the same reason that I'm not going to wear a black belt: It's not something that I've earned, and if I'm using it as a fashion accessory, then I'm both claiming something that isn't mine to claim, and insulting others who have done so. I'm not going to wear a sombrero for the same reason that I'm not going to wear an afro comb: There's a pretty good chance that it'll annoy people who don't necessarily deserve to be annoyed by me, and wearing either isn't important enough to me to cause unnecessary annoyance. That's not sentimentality. It's a baseline level of empathy.

[Imperializt Russia]

Of course there are cases of it (Girls wearing traditional Native American headdresses or Hindu bindis for fashion purposes, e.g.), but I don't think that it can be helped in most cases, as cultures that come into regular contact with each other in a multicultural setting will naturally tend to influence each other, and share various elements of their experiences. I'm fine with the idea that a war whoop or tomahawk chop could be considered tacky, but where does one draw the line? I've seen yoga classes canceled with this as the excuse. I see why wearing a sombrero to a party would be insulting, but do I still get to serve tacos? What about rap, jazz, rock music, all of which came from black artists? People going overboard on this issue is one of the things that soured me on identity politics, and keeps me from being the ally that people want me to be, instead forcing me into the position of being the ally that I am.

Food is fine, yoga and the like are fine, music is fine.
Appropriation of cultural dress is iffy.

Only some cultural dress mind you - the native american headdresses are obviously top of that pile, because they are ceremonial. These are things with immense cultural meaning. When people wear them at festivals when they get drunk...
Even I think that's bad.

No-one should really have a problem against things like saris or the hijab. Both look kind of awesome, and western women may be expected to wear them in the cultures where they originate, after all.

[Imperializt Russia]

It's a pretty well established byproduct of colonialism dating back to Columbus. Colonial conquerors crib practices, ideas, and aesthetics that they find charming or quaint, and build up a repertoire of stolen goods and artefacts from the civilizations they tear down. When capitalism came into being, and colonialism transformed into imperialism, conquerors no longer simply stole artefacts, they put them up for sale. Everything in the colonized culture is monetized, even aesthetics, and rich colonizers and tourists pay good money for an 'authentic' experience of culture. India, Algeria, China, Korea, you name it, are made into muses for the colonial imagination, host cultures for the colonial parasite to enjoy and discard at will. "Cultural appropriation" is just a trendy new name for an old practice. The land, products, and people of colonized nations are treated as resources for commercial exploitation, so why should their culture be any different?

Here's a challenge for you, then. I challenge you to get rid of everything in your house that says, "Made in China."

That's... really, really not the same thing.

[Luminesa]

Here's a challenge for you, then. I challenge you to get rid of everything in your house that says, "Made in China."

Wow what a zinger

Well, consider what you just said. We're the "cultural parasites" whose ancestors have hurt these people, and we should feel bad for what our ancestors did, exploiting these people. Did colonial exploitation take place? Certainly, nobody is denying that. Are many workers in third-world countries exploited, underpaid, and unprotected from the dangers of working in factories and other manufacturing places? Yes, and something should be done about that, as there are indeed genuine human rights violations happening in many of these countries, especially in places like China.

However, at the same time, you're most likely wearing a shirt, using a phone/computer, and living in a house made with parts that are not from the USA. Meanwhile, many people in Far Eastern countries enjoy dressing in decidedly American ways, eating American food, and listening to American music. If you're going to complain about how "the evil whites" have appropriated the cultures of these poor, downtrodden countries, then you also have to tell a Chinese person who happens to like Michael Jackson, "Hey, you can't listen to my American music, that's cultural appropriation!" or a Japanese kid who really likes baseball, "Hey, you can't play that, that's an American sport!" You see how this works? The world has become so globalized that the countries that were oppressed by colonists now have taken an interest in the culture of the colonials themselves, and have thus "borrowed" things that they like from that culture.

Finally, considering you probably own all of those things-a shirt, phone, computer, and other items with parts made in China, or Japan, or Korea, or sometimes even India, if you hate "cultural appropriation" so much, would you be willing to part with those items to take a stand against borrowing parts of other peoples' cultures by letting go of all of the things in your house that say "Made in China", "Made in Japan", "Made in Korea", and whatnot?

[Luminesa]

Here's a challenge for you, then. I challenge you to get rid of everything in your house that says, "Made in China."

That's... really, really not the same thing.

Did I perhaps read something wrong? I read the post twice this time, then explained myself.

[Yootxtlalkaan]

i think a distinction has to be drawn between cultural exchange and cultural commodification/accessorization/fetishization

[Imperializt Russia]

That's... really, really not the same thing.

Did I perhaps read something wrong? I read the post twice this time, then explained myself.

The fact that China makes all our cheap tat in the west, and 90% of consumer goods besides, is nothing to do with "cultural appropriation".

The fact that the only two meals I cook at the moment are egg fried rice and stir fry are closer to being "cultural appropriation".

[Luminesa]

Did I perhaps read something wrong? I read the post twice this time, then explained myself.

The fact that China makes all our cheap tat in the west, and 90% of consumer goods besides, is nothing to do with "cultural appropriation".

The fact that the only two meals I cook at the moment are egg fried rice and stir fry are closer to being "cultural appropriation".

...Oh, I see what you mean.

Mm, egg fried rice! I want some!

[Imperializt Russia]

I'm struggling at the minute, I'm well out of practice. I used to not give the egg time enough to properly cook before mixing it up with the rest of the dish.
Now I've been ensuring it fully cooks (getting a mini-omelette thing going on before I break it up), and the flavour of the egg really isn't coming through at all when I do.

[Lies and Ignorance]

Well, consider what you just said. We're the "cultural parasites" whose ancestors have hurt these people, and we should feel bad for what our ancestors did, exploiting these people. Did colonial exploitation take place? Certainly, nobody is denying that. Are many workers in third-world countries exploited, underpaid, and unprotected from the dangers of working in factories and other manufacturing places? Yes, and something should be done about that, as there are indeed genuine human rights violations happening in many of these countries, especially in places like China.

The colonizer-colonized contradiction is global, not regional, and it defines the current epoch as much as it defined "our ancestors" epoch. The fact that you're talking about "what our ancestors did" is a dead giveaway that you don't understand how the past informs the present, and how colonialism is actively being reasserted by the first world. We're not talking about lingering inequality, in fact the situation has been getting worse.

However, at the same time, you're most likely wearing a shirt, using a phone/computer, and living in a house made with parts that are not from the USA. Meanwhile, many people in Far Eastern countries enjoy dressing in decidedly American ways, eating American food, and listening to American music. If you're going to complain about how "the evil whites" have appropriated the cultures of these poor, downtrodden countries, then you also have to tell a Chinese person who happens to like Michael Jackson, "Hey, you can't listen to my American music, that's cultural appropriation!" or a Japanese kid who really likes baseball, "Hey, you can't play that, that's an American sport!" You see how this works? The world has become so globalized that the countries that were oppressed by colonists now have taken an interest in the culture of the colonials themselves, and have thus "borrowed" things that they like from that culture.

"But third worlders wear blue jeans!" is missing the point. Cultural exploitation vitiates, reduces, and humiliates the colonized nation. It subjects the cultural development of the colonized nation to outsized foreign influence and pushes it in a commercially profitable direction. It is not reciprocal cultural exchange. It is a method of ideological and mental control. It slowly destroys the colonized culture.

Finally, considering you probably own all of those things-a shirt, phone, computer, and other items with parts made in China, or Japan, or Korea, or sometimes even India, if you hate "cultural appropriation" so much, would you be willing to part with those items to take a stand against borrowing parts of other peoples' cultures by letting go of all of the things in your house that say "Made in China", "Made in Japan", "Made in Korea", and whatnot?

This is such a cheap and thoughtless argument, and I can't really see what it has to do with what I'm talking about. You show a faint awareness that the lifestyle of first worlders is furnished by a one-way supply of commodities from exploited nations, but it hasn't hit you that this builds my case more than it does yours.

[Virgola]

Well, consider what you just said. We're the "cultural parasites" whose ancestors have hurt these people, and we should feel bad for what our ancestors did, exploiting these people. Did colonial exploitation take place? Certainly, nobody is denying that. Are many workers in third-world countries exploited, underpaid, and unprotected from the dangers of working in factories and other manufacturing places? Yes, and something should be done about that, as there are indeed genuine human rights violations happening in many of these countries, especially in places like China.

The colonizer-colonized contradiction is global, not regional, and it defines the current epoch as much as it defined "our ancestors" epoch. The fact that you're talking about "what our ancestors did" is a dead giveaway that you don't understand how the past informs the present, and how colonialism is actively being reasserted by the first world. We're not talking about lingering inequality, in fact the situation has been getting worse.

However, at the same time, you're most likely wearing a shirt, using a phone/computer, and living in a house made with parts that are not from the USA. Meanwhile, many people in Far Eastern countries enjoy dressing in decidedly American ways, eating American food, and listening to American music. If you're going to complain about how "the evil whites" have appropriated the cultures of these poor, downtrodden countries, then you also have to tell a Chinese person who happens to like Michael Jackson, "Hey, you can't listen to my American music, that's cultural appropriation!" or a Japanese kid who really likes baseball, "Hey, you can't play that, that's an American sport!" You see how this works? The world has become so globalized that the countries that were oppressed by colonists now have taken an interest in the culture of the colonials themselves, and have thus "borrowed" things that they like from that culture.

"But third worlders wear blue jeans!" is missing the point. Cultural exploitation vitiates, reduces, and humiliates the colonized nation. It subjects the cultural development of the colonized nation to outsized foreign influence and pushes it in a commercially profitable direction. It is not reciprocal cultural exchange. It is a method of ideological and mental control. It slowly destroys the colonized culture.

Finally, considering you probably own all of those things-a shirt, phone, computer, and other items with parts made in China, or Japan, or Korea, or sometimes even India, if you hate "cultural appropriation" so much, would you be willing to part with those items to take a stand against borrowing parts of other peoples' cultures by letting go of all of the things in your house that say "Made in China", "Made in Japan", "Made in Korea", and whatnot?

This is such a cheap and thoughtless argument, and I can't really see what it has to do with what I'm talking about. You show a faint awareness that the lifestyle of first worlders is furnished by a one-way supply of commodities from exploited nations, but it hasn't hit you that this builds my case more than it does yours.

So are we saying that white people are evil?
And may I query how these cultures are being destroyed? Keeping in mind that was what I interperated from what you said.

[South Shellfort]

No. The whole point of the "melting pot" multiculturalism is to take different aspects from different cultures and blend them together. It's what makes countries like Brazil so vibrant and unique.

Corruption and high homicide rates are such good and vibrant things