LGBT Rights & Issues Thread, V4

[United Marxist Nations]

Some Native American cultures had seven genders!
(possibly bad source)
http://www.angelfire.com/on/otherwise/native.html
(It is widely accepted some for certain had 5)
But yes, if I recall in some isolated places in the Pacific, Transgender people upon walking up to the shore, could very well be worshipped. What I looked through in all my research were places untouched by.....well, I call it the elephant in the room, maybe you can guess it. Anyway, in Islam, like the Mughal Empire located in Northern Inida and place east of Iran, surprisingly transgender people were treated with better respect than in *other* places. But yep, some go pretty far. Many are considered 'good luck". Many are seen to have powerful abilities! I can verify this, as well!
(also, the link I quoted has an in-debth analysis of transgender and LGBT people in herstory)

Yeah I think European ideas of the gender binary have become wayyyy too normalised.

Well, I think it's more that most cultures have that binary. Arabic culture has it as well, for example, as do most of the East Asian cultures.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

Some Native American cultures had seven genders!
(possibly bad source)
http://www.angelfire.com/on/otherwise/native.html
(It is widely accepted some for certain had 5)
But yes, if I recall in some isolated places in the Pacific, Transgender people upon walking up to the shore, could very well be worshipped. What I looked through in all my research were places untouched by.....well, I call it the elephant in the room, maybe you can guess it. Anyway, in Islam, like the Mughal Empire located in Northern Inida and place east of Iran, surprisingly transgender people were treated with better respect than in *other* places. But yep, some go pretty far. Many are considered 'good luck". Many are seen to have powerful abilities! I can verify this, as well!
(also, the link I quoted has an in-debth analysis of transgender and LGBT people in herstory)

Yeah I think European ideas of the gender binary have become wayyyy too normalised.

Ehhhh, may the best civilisation win.

[The Grene Knyght]

Yeah I think European ideas of the gender binary have become wayyyy too normalised.

Well, I think it's more that most cultures have that binary. Arabic culture has it as well, for example, as do most of the East Asian cultures.

but not the same binary europe does

[Pasovo-nacoBo]

Yeah I think European ideas of the gender binary have become wayyyy too normalised.

Well, I think it's more that most cultures have that binary. Arabic culture has it as well, for example, as do most of the East Asian cultures.

[
Ehhhh, may the best civilisation win.

That is quite the case. The inly reason Binary cultures seem like the norm because the most accepting cultures were either conquered, forced to change, or were exterminated. However, this thesis I want to push is the LGBT+ people will continue to exist no matter what happens in life, we are a natural "remainder" to a perfect equation if you don't mind me saying.

[Vassenor]

...so I'm guessing the takeaway from the last ten or so pages is "transpeople need to be oppressed because I think SRS is icky"?

[Pasovo-nacoBo]

So anyway. thank you guys for being so very kind to me on this thread! I have to go to bed, but I hope the conversation of Trans* people in history and in different cultures leads to a great learning experience for every party involved!
Once again, I cannot thank enough all the kind people here, have a great night!

[United Marxist Nations]

...so I'm guessing the takeaway from the last ten or so pages is "transpeople need to be oppressed because I think SRS is icky"?

I would say it is immoral, and therefore shouldn't be allowed, but you guys give no shits what I think because I'm against individual liberty to begin with.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

...so I'm guessing the takeaway from the last ten or so pages is "transpeople need to be oppressed because I think SRS is icky"?

Great summary. /sarc

[Pasovo-nacoBo]

...so I'm guessing the takeaway from the last ten or so pages is "transpeople need to be oppressed because I think SRS is icky"?

I guess that was the theme. So, i kinda want to change that with my new subject here: The Hijras in India, with their historical culture that recognizes transgender people, and civilizations...
mew

[The Grene Knyght]

...so I'm guessing the takeaway from the last ten or so pages is "transpeople need to be oppressed because I think SRS is icky"?

sums it up nicely

[Liriena]

...so I'm guessing the takeaway from the last ten or so pages is "transpeople need to be oppressed because I think SRS is icky"?

I would say it is immoral

Which would open up a sizeable can of worms.

[Liriena]

The psychological gender not matching to biological sex is pretty much a neurological disorder.

Is this a professional opinion or...?

[United Marxist Nations]

The psychological gender not matching to biological sex is pretty much a neurological disorder.

Is this a professional opinion or...?

I don't see how one would argue that it isn't.

[Liriena]

Is this a professional opinion or...?

I don't see how one would argue that it isn't.

Take that up to actual mental health professionals.
http://time.com/4424589/being-transgender-is-not-a-mental-disorder-study/
http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx

[Vassenor]

...so I'm guessing the takeaway from the last ten or so pages is "transpeople need to be oppressed because I think SRS is icky"?

I would say it is immoral, and therefore shouldn't be allowed, but you guys give no shits what I think because I'm against individual liberty to begin with.

And I would say religious conservatism is immoral but you don't see me saying it should be banned.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

I would say it is immoral, and therefore shouldn't be allowed, but you guys give no shits what I think because I'm against individual liberty to begin with.

And I would say religious conservatism is immoral but you don't see me saying it should be banned.

Your point being?

[Vassenor]

And I would say religious conservatism is immoral but you don't see me saying it should be banned.

Your point being?

That when you boil it down "this needs to be banned because I think it's immoral" is exactly the same "this needs to be banned to save my feels" argument that people on the right mock the SJW crowd for.

[Nature-Spirits]

I saw alt-rightists and TERFs and decided to skip the last several pages.

Anyway.

Ehhhh, may the best civilisation win.

Actually, the major reason for which Europe has been so much more technologically "advanced" than other parts of the world is that they're in a good latitude for extensive trading -- the same latitude and on the same landmass where agriculture and gunpowder were first developed. It was inevitable that, once they took up the cause of imperialism, other societies would be swiftly colonised.

My point being that white, European society is not "the best" by any objective metric. They were just lucky.

Well, I think it's more that most cultures have that binary. Arabic culture has it as well, for example, as do most of the East Asian cultures.

Really? Then why is it that nonbinary genders have been documented throughout the Americas, Polynesia, South Asia, and, indeed, some parts of Europe?

[The V O I D]

Yes, while that is true, there are usually other factors involved - and most of them involve the brain self-destructing or ceasing certain functions over time.

Being transgender and gender dysphoria cause no brain damage/trauma and are not caused by such, therefor equating them to mental illnesses that cause brain damage/trauma or are caused by brain damage/trauma is false equivalency.

Being transgender is natural to one's neurology as well as gender dysphoria. The only reason you identify as male is because of your neurology. It is only partially psychological, and that's only for dysphoria.

A lot of illnesses are just how the brain is wired. Schizophrenia, for example. Or, better yet, for just neurological disorders in-general, autism.

The psychological gender not matching to biological sex is pretty much a neurological disorder.

No, it isn't. Neurological disorder implies something is wrong. There is nothing wrong. The only thing wrong involved is if dysphoria is created by repression, because that can (and does/will) generate a significant number of suicides - even among those receiving "psychological counselling".

So, you're wrong. But then again you tend to be that in general.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

I saw alt-rightists and TERFs and decided to skip the last several pages.

Anyway.

Ehhhh, may the best civilisation win.

Actually, the major reason for which Europe has been so much more technologically "advanced" than other parts of the world is that they're in a good latitude for extensive trading -- the same latitude and on the same landmass where agriculture and gunpowder were first developed. It was inevitable that, once they took up the cause of imperialism, other societies would be swiftly colonised.

My point being that white, European society is not "the best" by any objective metric. They were just lucky.

Well, I think it's more that most cultures have that binary. Arabic culture has it as well, for example, as do most of the East Asian cultures.

Really? Then why is it that nonbinary genders have been documented throughout the Americas, Polynesia, South Asia, and, indeed, some parts of Europe?

I never mentioned skin colour, I would appreciate it if you didn't presume that I said that because the civilisations were predominantly if not wholly white. I am well aware of the luck in which the civilisations of Europe had. With this luck they spread their ideas across the planet. Whether they are lucky or not I'll say this for a second time.

May the best civilisation win.

[Jumalariik]

So let's think of it this way: males have particular skull characteristics. Females do as well. Men have particular brain patterns. Women do too. Are you saying that there are skull characteristics and brain patterns that conform to a lack of gender? I mean leaps of logic are fine, but I'm interested in actual proof of this view.

Actually, everyone's skulls and brains are about the same. But some people's neurologies (e.g. how the brain is wired and structured on a neurological level) are different. Transwomen and ciswomen both have female identification neurological structures in their brains, both of which are active in a similar way. Same deal with transmen and cismen.

I imagine that for agender people, if we were to investigate them, they'd have either an inactive gender identification center or have no structure to begin with where there normally is structure. For non-binary, I'd imagine that the structures are sort of mashed together and are both active at once.

That's what I was trying to say.

But this is not proven as of yet. Further, the idea that gender and sex are not the same is pretty gnostic tbh

[The V O I D]

Is this a professional opinion or...?

I don't see how one would argue that it isn't.

Perhaps because it isn't to begin with so using it as an argument is invalid?

That sounds about right.

...so I'm guessing the takeaway from the last ten or so pages is "transpeople need to be oppressed because I think SRS is icky"?

I would say it is immoral, and therefore shouldn't be allowed, but you guys give no shits what I think because I'm against individual liberty to begin with.

And yet, if someone like me were to say religion is immoral, and therefor shouldn't be allowed, you'd probably yell at us for being "unfair" and "takin away muh rights".

Which would be quite hypocritical.

[The V O I D]

Actually, everyone's skulls and brains are about the same. But some people's neurologies (e.g. how the brain is wired and structured on a neurological level) are different. Transwomen and ciswomen both have female identification neurological structures in their brains, both of which are active in a similar way. Same deal with transmen and cismen.

I imagine that for agender people, if we were to investigate them, they'd have either an inactive gender identification center or have no structure to begin with where there normally is structure. For non-binary, I'd imagine that the structures are sort of mashed together and are both active at once.

That's what I was trying to say.

But this is not proven as of yet. Further, the idea that gender and sex are not the same is pretty gnostic tbh

Yes, which I think needs to be corrected to confirm my hypothesis based on known facts.

That's because no reputable psychological resources recognize gender and sex as the same. Gender is, has been, and will always be psychological and neurological. Sex is, has been, and will always be the physical and reproductive aspects.

[Nature-Spirits]

I saw alt-rightists and TERFs and decided to skip the last several pages.

Anyway.


Actually, the major reason for which Europe has been so much more technologically "advanced" than other parts of the world is that they're in a good latitude for extensive trading -- the same latitude and on the same landmass where agriculture and gunpowder were first developed. It was inevitable that, once they took up the cause of imperialism, other societies would be swiftly colonised.

My point being that white, European society is not "the best" by any objective metric. They were just lucky.


Really? Then why is it that nonbinary genders have been documented throughout the Americas, Polynesia, South Asia, and, indeed, some parts of Europe?

I never mentioned skin colour, I would appreciate it if you didn't presume that I said that because the civilisations were predominantly if not wholly white. I am well aware of the luck in which the civilisations of Europe had. With this luck they spread their ideas across the planet. Whether they are lucky or not I'll say this for a second time.

May the best civilisation win.

Okay, to simplify things further for you: No culture can be objectively "better" than any other. And although you may not have explicitly mentioned skin colour, it is implied -- and to be clear, I wasn't accusing you of being racist; I was simply using "white" to clarify the group to which I was referring.

And honestly, I don't see why any civilisation should be declared a "winner" of anything. Living as a human in this world is not a contest.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

I never mentioned skin colour, I would appreciate it if you didn't presume that I said that because the civilisations were predominantly if not wholly white. I am well aware of the luck in which the civilisations of Europe had. With this luck they spread their ideas across the planet. Whether they are lucky or not I'll say this for a second time.

May the best civilisation win.

Okay, to simplify things further for you: No culture can be objectively "better" than any other. And although you may not have explicitly mentioned skin colour, it is implied -- and to be clear, I wasn't accusing you of being racist; I was simply using "white" to clarify the group to which I was referring.

And honestly, I don't see why any civilisation should be declared a "winner" of anything. Living as a human in this world is not a contest.

I implied that western civilisations were better, the implications had nothing to do with skin colour.

No culture can be objectively better, you are correct, they all have their pros and cons. However, we can objectively measure and identify which civilisations were better then others, most measure this through the contributions made to humanity and/or its success as a civilisation. There are a number of ways to measure this.

The history of Humanity is one of a constant competition for resources such as land, food, water and, for a very long time, woman. (However that view has changed) It has always been a competition. Or it was for a long time at least.