LGBT Rights & Issues Thread, V4

[Lady Scylla]

Depending on interpretation. Plenty of LGBT Churches

Which is why I don't understand why VOID wants to make us alter our theology to appeal to modernists. Why can't they just go to modernist churches?

My position has shifted. At one point, I didn't mind religion, but I've developed a more complex position on it -- it's removal from the State, the loss of public office for those incapable of separating their religious beliefs from their policymaking, the removal of tax exemption from church properties (and all religious institutions, regardless of religion), and the belief that religion should remain a personal venture. It conflicts with my transhumanist beliefs, and I feel it holds us back, and is outdated.

[Benuty]

Which is why I don't understand why VOID wants to make us alter our theology to appeal to modernists. Why can't they just go to modernist churches?

My position has shifted. At one point, I didn't mind religion, but I've developed a more complex position on it -- it's removal from the State, the loss of public office for those incapable of separating their religious beliefs from their policymaking, the removal of tax exemption from church properties (and all religious institutions, regardless of religion), and the belief that religion should remain a personal venture. It conflicts with my transhumanist beliefs, and I feel it holds us back, and is outdated.

Most of what humans hold dear not just religion can be considered outdated. Ever so thankfully transhumanism except in the cases of child sacrifice regarding immortality, knowledge, and power will not happen.

[Lady Scylla]

My position has shifted. At one point, I didn't mind religion, but I've developed a more complex position on it -- it's removal from the State, the loss of public office for those incapable of separating their religious beliefs from their policymaking, the removal of tax exemption from church properties (and all religious institutions, regardless of religion), and the belief that religion should remain a personal venture. It conflicts with my transhumanist beliefs, and I feel it holds us back, and is outdated.

Most of what humans hold dear not just religion can be considered outdated. Ever so thankfully transhumanism except in the cases of child sacrifice regarding immortality, knowledge, and power will not happen.

Seem pretty sure there. Maybe you're right, though the breakthrough of devising prostheses that can move via the brain, and have the ability to feel is a major advancement. Religion isn't the only thing I've issues with, I've a list.

[Farnhamia]

Dude, I live in Oklahoma.

Oklahomans are generally not fascists or stupid.

*** Warned for flaming. ***

[Nature-Spirits]

The belief of the early Church, because they witnessed first hand the miracles that took place. I don't think all of the Apostles would have willingly gone to their deaths if they didn't truly believe in what they did; and, for them to truly believe in it, they would have had to actually have seen what they describe.

This argument could be applied to any major religion, though.

I mean, let's just take it and put it in a different context: If someone has hallucinations and sincerely believes that they saw a purple duck singing La Vie en Rose, and they willingly went to their death to defend that belief, would that necessarily make their belief in the existence of a purple duck singing La Vie en Rose correct?

[Aphryss]

The belief of the early Church, because they witnessed first hand the miracles that took place. I don't think all of the Apostles would have willingly gone to their deaths if they didn't truly believe in what they did; and, for them to truly believe in it, they would have had to actually have seen what they describe.

This argument could be applied to any major religion, though.

I mean, let's just take it and put it in a different context: If someone has hallucinations and sincerely believes that they saw a purple duck singing La Vie en Rose, and they willingly went to their death to defend that belief, would that necessarily make their belief in the existence of a purple duck singing La Vie en Rose correct?

"Is someone willing to die for it?" is a very low bar. In 2016 alone we've seen people willing to die for federal land use reform (Malheur), radical Islam (ISIS), and feeling excluded and isolated by a gay club (Pulse Orlando). I posit that people are willing to die for all sorts of stupid shit, and that it can't be used as a good yardstick for the validity of their reasons.

[East Gondwana]

So only people of your faith are allowed to assert that they're correct?


Is it still sinful to wear mixed fabric clothes, then?

1) We hold that there is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is the custodian of the true faith, and has existed since its founding at Pentecost.

2) As I said, I'm not enough of an authority to comment on that.

Yet you're enough of an authority to comment on the apparent sinfulness of homosexuality?

[East Gondwana]

Well, I think there is good reason to believe that God exists and has ordained a particular moral code. But, sure, for the sake of argument.

But what would make God's moral code "correct"? Because he says so? Because that's not a very convincing argument.

[Lady Scylla]

Way to go, Northern Ireland

[East Gondwana]

Way to go, Northern Ireland

I just read an opinion piece on this issue and I have to say that I'm somewhat conflicted

[Seraven]

Well, for one thing, it seems that LGBT issues and rights are being strongly contested in Indonesia, sometimes referred, or called, as a "nation with the largest Islamic population in the world and one that is quite secular".

More or less, the conservative family values organization of AILA, backed by none less and none other but the well-educated ones, professors, scientists. It gained a better chance of limiting LGBT issues and rights than the Islamic Defender Front/FPI, which use religion values while AILA use family values as their main reason why LGBY needs to be limited or even squashed permanently.

I, for one, am not against LGBT but not strongly supporting it. But I don't want to be a hypocrite considering I've...well, kind of fantasized girl on girl, and man on man, despite being a straight orientation person.

[Thermodolia]

Well, for one thing, it seems that LGBT issues and rights are being strongly contested in Indonesia, sometimes referred, or called, as a "nation with the largest Islamic population in the world and one that is quite secular".

More or less, the conservative family values organization of AILA, backed by none less and none other but the well-educated ones, professors, scientists. It gained a better chance of limiting LGBT issues and rights than the Islamic Defender Front/FPI, which use religion values while AILA use family values as their main reason why LGBY needs to be limited or even squashed permanently.

I, for one, am not against LGBT but not strongly supporting it. But I don't want to be a hypocrite considering I've...well, kind of fantasized girl on girl, and man on man, despite being a straight orientation person.

Why would that make you a hypocrite?

[Sungai Pusat]

Way to go, Northern Ireland

I just read an opinion piece on this issue and I have to say that I'm somewhat conflicted

It's also more muddy in terms of the purpose for the cake; as the opinion article suggested, the ruling wasn't done to a gay couple's marriage cake; it was done to a cake specifically directed as being in support of gay marriage.

Well, for one thing, it seems that LGBT issues and rights are being strongly contested in Indonesia, sometimes referred, or called, as a "nation with the largest Islamic population in the world and one that is quite secular".

More or less, the conservative family values organization of AILA, backed by none less and none other but the well-educated ones, professors, scientists. It gained a better chance of limiting LGBT issues and rights than the Islamic Defender Front/FPI, which use religion values while AILA use family values as their main reason why LGBY needs to be limited or even squashed permanently.

I, for one, am not against LGBT but not strongly supporting it. But I don't want to be a hypocrite considering I've...well, kind of fantasized girl on girl, and man on man, despite being a straight orientation person.

Why would that make you a hypocrite?

I guess because they don't feel like it's appropriate to objectify gay people beyond what they did, the stereotype being that there are a lot of homophobic people who would probably jerk off/squee or whatever over gay people imagery, even though they don't support it happening in real life.

[Seraven]

Well, for one thing, it seems that LGBT issues and rights are being strongly contested in Indonesia, sometimes referred, or called, as a "nation with the largest Islamic population in the world and one that is quite secular".

More or less, the conservative family values organization of AILA, backed by none less and none other but the well-educated ones, professors, scientists. It gained a better chance of limiting LGBT issues and rights than the Islamic Defender Front/FPI, which use religion values while AILA use family values as their main reason why LGBY needs to be limited or even squashed permanently.

I, for one, am not against LGBT but not strongly supporting it. But I don't want to be a hypocrite considering I've...well, kind of fantasized girl on girl, and man on man, despite being a straight orientation person.

Why would that make you a hypocrite?

I am against LGBT and yet fantasize about the sexual encounters of LGBT.

I just read an opinion piece on this issue and I have to say that I'm somewhat conflicted

It's also more muddy in terms of the purpose for the cake; as the opinion article suggested, the ruling wasn't done to a gay couple's marriage cake; it was done to a cake specifically directed as being in support of gay marriage.

Why would that make you a hypocrite?

I guess because they don't feel like it's appropriate to objectify gay people beyond what they did, the stereotype being that there are a lot of homophobic people who would probably jerk off/squee or whatever over gay people imagery, even though they don't support it happening in real life.

This.

Though mostly my standing currently is strictly neutral, in the past leaning towards anti-LGBT and then pro-LGBT for quite some time on both sides.

[Grenartia]

So, America is actually pretty much a pioneer on Gay Marriage, even more so than Europe. Who'd have thought.

Right, which is why countries like Ireland legalised same-sex marriage by popular vote long before America had to be dragged to it kicking and screaming.

I thought that vote only happened a few months before the last SCOTUS decision on the subject.

So how does that justify discrimination?

No? If you have the same rights, is it really discrimination?

Separate but equal is not equal. Its been settled since 50 years ago. We saw with segregated schools and restaurants and bathrooms and water fountains, that the accommodations designated for the more socially acceptable were of decent quality, while the accommodations designated for the less socially acceptable were of horrid quality. This is inherent to the entire concept of having 2 or more separate sets of accommodations in the same area of service.

Civil unions are not the same as formal marriages. A civil union sounds like it's just some person you're with.

A marriage implies that they are your life partner, your one true love, y'know. The person you want to spend the rest of your life with.

Marriages are also far more formal and can be hosted in churches and such rather than just going to a courthouse. Denying marriage rights is essentially saying, "you only get an informal union that doesn't even actually mean anything real."

Hence, discrimination. It's cop-out "equality".

1. If you're gay, why would you want to be married in a church? Does that make it better in the eyes of God?

2. Also, it's basically no less formal. It's just a different name. Practically speaking, no difference. A church is no less likely to let you celebrate there after marriage than before and who cares what the government says your partner is?

1. There's lots of churches that are LGBT+ affirming, and some churches have even filed lawsuits for marriage equality. Really, there's no inherent contradiction between any religious belief and being proudly LGBT.

2. Then what's the point in having a different name, if its the exact same thing? Why have all that duplication of effort, and why allow there to be a quality bias between the two accommodations?

very simple, there are many LGBT religious people and many of them want to get married in church to do so in the eyes of God.

LGBT religious? But isn't homosexuality condemned by all major religions?

No. Mostly just the loudest voices from those religions. A lot of LGBT inclusivity can be found in nearly every major religion.

I agree.

I realise that a segregation analogy probably won't resonate much with an unrepentant Nazi, but I thought it was worth posting anyway.

So ultimately, what a homosexual wants, is social acceptance of their behaviour. It's not about legal equality but social equality. They see being gay as similar to being black pre-civil rights era.

Is that about right?

Really, most of the struggle is about legal equality, because social equality inevitably falls in place after legal equality.

Essentially. But it's not just them who see it that way. Science has proven that LGBT people's brains are slightly different in some ways to cishet brains; and most biologists believe that these differences are likely what causes, in combination with genetics and hormonal differences, differentiating gender identities and sexualities.

In other words, being LGBT is just as biological as your skin color.

1. I have a hard time coming to terms with that idea because a black person can't withhold or hide their skin colour like a gay person can. So I feel it's a different situation. Can you imagine if every gay person grew a rainbow coloured stamp on their heads, and were discriminated because of it? I think that would be the difference.

2. Do you think it is plausible that an inherent trait like being gay can be scientifically altered? So with some genetic and hormonal alterations?

1. But that begs the question of why somebody should "withhold or hide" critical aspects of their person unless it is actually detrimental to others.

2. Possibly, but why would you want to? And what about that person's right of self-determination?

[Kannap]

My friend walked into the room I was in last night and said, "It feels longer, but it has only been a year since same sex marriage was legalized."

I don't know whether or not he reminded me of that last night or if I knew it all along.

[Sungai Pusat]

My friend walked into the room I was in last night and said, "It feels longer, but it has only been a year since same sex marriage was legalized."

I don't know whether or not he reminded me of that last night or if I knew it all along.

Well, our sense of time is a funny thing because of how much it's influenced by things that aren't, strictly speaking, the passage of time.

[Kannap]

My friend walked into the room I was in last night and said, "It feels longer, but it has only been a year since same sex marriage was legalized."

I don't know whether or not he reminded me of that last night or if I knew it all along.

Well, our sense of time is a funny thing because of how much it's influenced by things that aren't, strictly speaking, the passage of time.

I mean, Christmas is in two months and I refuse to believe that because Christmas just happened.

Halloween is in a few days but it doesn't feel Halloweeny.

[Sungai Pusat]

Well, our sense of time is a funny thing because of how much it's influenced by things that aren't, strictly speaking, the passage of time.

I mean, Christmas is in two months and I refuse to believe that because Christmas just happened.

Halloween is in a few days but it doesn't feel Halloweeny.

Well, that is explained by, apparently at least (Not much of Halloween here in Singapore), how Christmas keeps getting pushed back earlier and earlier, hence why it feels like it just happened. I think.

[Thermodolia]

Well, our sense of time is a funny thing because of how much it's influenced by things that aren't, strictly speaking, the passage of time.

I mean, Christmas is in two months and I refuse to believe that because Christmas just happened.

Halloween is in a few days but it doesn't feel Halloweeny.

It's the election year

[Kannap]

I mean, Christmas is in two months and I refuse to believe that because Christmas just happened.

Halloween is in a few days but it doesn't feel Halloweeny.

It's the election year

Election day doesn't feel like it's just two weeks away. It feels much more distant.

[Hetalia Dakota 2 II]

Tad unrelated, but anyone here have two same sex parents? It's something I'd love to have in common woth someone to talk about with and I don't know anyone else who does

[Thermodolia]

Tad unrelated, but anyone here have two same sex parents? It's something I'd love to have in common woth someone to talk about with and I don't know anyone else who does

At times I wish I did.

[Sungai Pusat]

Tad unrelated, but anyone here have two same sex parents? It's something I'd love to have in common woth someone to talk about with and I don't know anyone else who does

Probably will never know anyone who does for as long as I live. (IRL)

[Hetalia Dakota 2 II]

Tad unrelated, but anyone here have two same sex parents? It's something I'd love to have in common woth someone to talk about with and I don't know anyone else who does

At times I wish I did.

It's not much different for me, my moms still didn't take the whole being Trans thing well