Opinions on Muslim Ban

[The first Galactic Republic]

What harm?
And just because some countries are worse doesn't mean they are entitled to come here. Refugee status is different from immigration status, though as we've seen, that too may need revisiting since hundreds of thousands of """Refugees"""" from Syria are just immigrants claiming asylum status and telling us they come from Syria.

Your policy is one of literally throwing open the doors to the entire third world.

I could accept that if they would integrate in meaningful numbers, but they do not. Why should the west be overrun and have our culture forced to conform to theirs?

Why should they be trapped in a country because they were born there?

Obviously because this poster doesn't want to be around them. They should respect his right to demand dffierent people stop existing. Or at least make it so he can pretend they aren't there.

[Vashty]

I don´t have them at hand and would need to search for them, but I can do that later.

In the meantime how about YOU show us some proof otherwise?

Also that countless wars, genocides and other ways of starving people existed in the dozens throughout history cannot be denied either.

And if so you are free to revise history completely and show us evidence that this all never happened.

Burden of proof mate. You should know this concept yourself.
If you claim something, especially something as stupid and blablantly false as you did, then you're the one that need to give proof of the veracity of this assertation as it's not up to others to disprove it.

One of my best friends who I go to uni with is from Somalia and is Muslim although not faithful. One of my best friends. Integrates fine. In fact, he's probably more patriotic than me.

[Aelex]

They do integrate.
They integrate so much, you don't notice it.

No they don't. And it's because it's so obvious that they don't even want to integrate that we notice it.

[Ostroeuropa]

What harm?
And just because some countries are worse doesn't mean they are entitled to come here. Refugee status is different from immigration status, though as we've seen, that too may need revisiting since hundreds of thousands of """Refugees"""" from Syria are just immigrants claiming asylum status and telling us they come from Syria.

Your policy is one of literally throwing open the doors to the entire third world.

I could accept that if they would integrate in meaningful numbers, but they do not. Why should the west be overrun and have our culture forced to conform to theirs?

Who said we had to conform to their culture?

It's a repeating pattern of pandering to the Islamic ghettos by our governments and institutions so as to spare their feelings and prevent ethnic conflict.

Due to my occuapation I think I have a lot more contact to refugees as the normal commentor here. So let me chime in to your statements.
From the 600+ refugees I've talked with were not a single one unthankful for my help. I have been at no point been afraid that something would happen to me.
As you might have expected there's a "but". The male group of those 600+ were almost entirely sexist in one way or another. By either not talking to my boss because she's a woman, or by complaining directly or indirectly about the stuff female staff or non-refugee students were wearing. There have been minor incidents that have been "dealt with" by the higher ups in order to not bring in the police. Our personal has been politely asked to wear more moderate clothing or hide their piercings. There have been several complaints by female staff and students about verbal abuse. 2 hours ago a coworker had a constant stream of students asking her stupid questions. When they left her office they were making quite some disrespectful gestures. She was wearing a summer dress with some cleavage. What I find interesting is that it's the same persons that shout some insults on some days and make some lecherous comments the next.
There is also a insane agression and potential for violence between the different regugees themself. Just last week there have been serious fight between 2 students because one of them decided to pronounce his name in in class in the way we were pronouncing it. Another student attacked him after class because this name is pronounced different in arab. Seriously, I couldn't quite follow the reasoning they gave to the police, but there was a lot of talk about being proud heritage, etc..
There are a lot of offers from volunteers to help integration (i.e. free courses to learn to play Guitar in a mixed group, and stuff like that) that go unused because there does't seem to be much interest in them. From my personal experience there is absolutely no interest from refugees to reach out to anything that involves integrating with non-refugees. There are groups and sub groups that completely isolate themselves.
So, from my personal experience with this group of refugees, I'm not afraid of someone blowing them self up, but from their reluctance to integrate into our society and accept personal freedom of females. Those people come from places where they have a completely incompatible culture ingrained into them from their first breath and I don't see them change this culture anytime soon. What will change is our culture to commemorate theirs. There are already some orders in place to change ourself in order to commemorate the refugees. Small things like "wear something less revealing" or "put out your piercings at work". At no point has there been someone saying to the refugees "Well, this is how it is here and you have to deal with it. Maybe try wearing something like this yourself you might actually like it". There is also some change in the populace visible. For example people going to the public pool are now changing into their swim suits at the pool and not at home (which used to be commonplace) so they don't have to walk from the parking space to the pool in their swim suits out of fear to be assaulted (both verbally or physically). Going from personal sphere of friends, a lot of them avoid the public pools altogether and rather flock to the lakes here.

Is a testimony of one example, and showing the usual dynamic in play.

We've already got animal-abuse meat being sold all over the place because we've had to adopt halal slaughter in a number of our companies.

This is because failing to do so means the muslims couldn't eat at those companies, as they would refuse to.
Another example is creeping gender segregation in swimming pools and such.

Basically, if we don't conform to their culture, there will be parallel societies, which leads to higher race tensions, terrorism, etc.
We're also seeing more strict dress codes and such.
We saw in Cologne the police chief telling women to cover up and go around with chaperones to stay safe.

We're being forced to conform to their culture because the alternative is more violence.

That's not immigration, its an invasion, and our government is so spineless and hates our culture so much, they are enabling it.

[Aelex]

One of my best friends who I go to uni with is from Somalia and is Muslim although not faithful. One of my best friends. Integrates fine. In fact, he's probably more patriotic than me.

Great for him. Since he's going to university, I suppose he is at least middle class, right?
Also, don't take it bad but anecdotal =/= actual evidence.

[Yodle]

They do integrate.
They integrate so much, you don't notice it.

No they don't. And it's because it's so obvious that they don't even want to integrate that we notice it.

They shouldn't be forced to, this is America and in America you can follow whatever culture you want as long as it doesn't break any laws.

[Ostroeuropa]

They aren't. They just shouldn't be let into ours. It's not like we're the only destination.

But they come to the first world to succeed. My therapist is Nigerian. My roomates eye doctor is Arabic, hell one of my best friends moved from Africa to France for an education. To prevent them from leaving their countries, you are limiting their chances of success

I don't care about limiting the chances of people who refuse to modernize having access to success.
We routinely enact sanctions against backwards governments. Doing it against backwards cultures is little different.
it sucks for the few modern individuals in those cultures, but they should focus on making their own countries less regressive.

[Aelex]

They shouldn't be forced to, this is America and in America you can follow whatever culture you want as long as it doesn't break any laws.

I was talking on a broader level than America.

[Laissez-Faire Economics]

But they come to the first world to succeed. My therapist is Nigerian. My roomates eye doctor is Arabic, hell one of my best friends moved from Africa to France for an education. To prevent them from leaving their countries, you are limiting their chances of success

I don't care about limiting the chances of people who refuse to modernize having access to success.
We routinely enact sanctions against backwards governments. Doing it against backwards cultures is little different.
it sucks for the few modern individuals in those cultures, but they should focus on making their own countries less regressive.

And then getting beheaded?

[Azurius]

No but okay. And the only one clearly talking out of his ass here is you. Which is why you so far provided nothing other then strawmans and insults. If not then again, you are free to cite sources and historical facts to prove me wrong.

UMN already did provide a source for you, on the other hand you've offered nothing beyond "muh history". Either admit you're making shit up or give me the names of these historians.

No he didn´t but okay, nice and complete lie here that anyone who looks through the comment history can easily see.

Also, I fail to find the exact article, as said these are estimates anyway, but I find plentifull more that in fact counts up overall gigantic numbers despite that only beeing the tip of the iceberg:


https://www.quora.com/Which-religion-is ... re-history

http://markhumphrys.com/christianity.killings.html

http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm


All you need to do is know history a bit and open your eyes and be unbiased and you will easily realize how gigantic the numbers are, and how countless wars, genocides etc. are that were fought in the name of religion.

And again you are free to prove that this is all false and never happened.

[Ostroeuropa]

I don't care about limiting the chances of people who refuse to modernize having access to success.
We routinely enact sanctions against backwards governments. Doing it against backwards cultures is little different.
it sucks for the few modern individuals in those cultures, but they should focus on making their own countries less regressive.

And then getting beheaded?

Our countries had to battle a long time to change that dynamic too. We should assist them, but not allow them to come here until their culture is up to scratch. The alternative is turning our society into something more resembling theirs.

Already, in response to them being here, we've had to ramp up the amount of authoritarian surveillance, start segregating more, free speech as a cultural notion is in decline, etc.

[Internationalist Bastard]

But they come to the first world to succeed. My therapist is Nigerian. My roomates eye doctor is Arabic, hell one of my best friends moved from Africa to France for an education. To prevent them from leaving their countries, you are limiting their chances of success

I don't care about limiting the chances of people who refuse to modernize having access to success.
We routinely enact sanctions against backwards governments. Doing it against backwards cultures is little different.
it sucks for the few modern individuals in those cultures, but they should focus on making their own countries less regressive.

So you're saying they don't matter because of their nation. That they are less entitled to freedom because they come from less free places.

[Azurius]

I don´t have them at hand and would need to search for them, but I can do that later.

In the meantime how about YOU show us some proof otherwise?

Also that countless wars, genocides and other ways of starving people existed in the dozens throughout history cannot be denied either.

And if so you are free to revise history completely and show us evidence that this all never happened.

Burden of proof mate. You should know this concept yourself.
If you claim something, especially something as stupid and blablantly false as you did, then you're the one that need to give proof of the veracity of this assertation as it's not up to others to disprove it.

Burden of proof also works vice versa as well mate since you are making the claim that for some reason christianity and islam didn´t overall kill hundreds of millions and up to a billion.

[Ostroeuropa]

I don't care about limiting the chances of people who refuse to modernize having access to success.
We routinely enact sanctions against backwards governments. Doing it against backwards cultures is little different.
it sucks for the few modern individuals in those cultures, but they should focus on making their own countries less regressive.

So you're saying they don't matter because of their nation. That they are less entitled to freedom because they come from less free places.

They are entitled to freedom. They just aren't entitled to live in our country. What about this don't you get?

Most refuse to integrate. That means we have to conform our institutions to them. That means our culture is becoming more like theirs.
Do you think this is positive?

[Communist Xomaniax]

Muslims holding radical or fundamenalist beliefs should absolutely be barred from entry, and there should be strict quotas on immigrants, particularly unskilled immigrants, especially ones from problem areas. Domestically, a permanent ban on foreign funding of mosques should be handed down, as well as the expulsion of radical or fundamenalist non-citizens back to their home countries, and increased surveillance of citizens with those beliefs. Maybe shut down fundamenalist mosques and madrassas as well.

Can't persecute people for just being muslim, though.

[Aelex]

No he didn´t but okay, nice and complete lie here that anyone who looks through the comment history can easily see.

Also, I fail to find the exact article, as said these are estimates anyway, but I find plentifull more that in fact counts up overall gigantic numbers despite that only beeing the tip of the iceberg:


https://www.quora.com/Which-religion-is ... re-history

http://markhumphrys.com/christianity.killings.html

http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm


All you need to do is know history a bit and open your eyes and be unbiased and you will easily realize how gigantic the numbers are, and how countless wars, genocides etc. are that were fought in the name of religion.

And again you are free to prove that this is all false and never happened.

Wow. Two absolutely non-biased blogs and a quora post. Seems like someone just gave us an iron-clad response!
The irony of the situation just is peachy, tho.

[Azurius]

One of my best friends who I go to uni with is from Somalia and is Muslim although not faithful. One of my best friends. Integrates fine. In fact, he's probably more patriotic than me.

Great for him. Since he's going to university, I suppose he is at least middle class, right?
Also, don't take it bad but anecdotal =/= actual evidence.

Wow big words coming from someone who literally has no evidence at all other then anecdotal, as in germany at least statistical data clearly shows that in fact immigrants from muslim countries are overall less criminal then germans or people from other ethnicities.

[Vashty]

They do integrate.
They integrate so much, you don't notice it.

No they don't. And it's because it's so obvious that they don't even want to integrate that we notice it.

Alright, prove me wrong lad. If anything they integrate and learn too much, they outperform natives and somehow outdo people who "naturally" support "Western" "values".

http://www.oecd.org/els/mig/Indicators-of-Immigrant-Integration-2015-Settling-In-facts-and-figures.PNG

page 22 of this basically says how little of a deal this is anyway, they are a tiny percentage of the population = https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/4481625/Norris_MuslimIntegration.pdf?sequence=1

[United Marxist Nations]

UMN already did provide a source for you, on the other hand you've offered nothing beyond "muh history". Either admit you're making shit up or give me the names of these historians.

No he didn´t but okay, nice and complete lie here that anyone who looks through the comment history can easily see.

Also, I fail to find the exact article, as said these are estimates anyway, but I find plentifull more that in fact counts up overall gigantic numbers despite that only beeing the tip of the iceberg:


https://www.quora.com/Which-religion-is ... re-history

http://markhumphrys.com/christianity.killings.html

http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm


All you need to do is know history a bit and open your eyes and be unbiased and you will easily realize how gigantic the numbers are, and how countless wars, genocides etc. are that were fought in the name of religion.

And again you are free to prove that this is all false and never happened.

First one says you are wrong, second one doesn't have a totals and uses RJ Rummel (LOL) as a source. Third one is from an astrology site, if I read the top right.

[Internationalist Bastard]

So you're saying they don't matter because of their nation. That they are less entitled to freedom because they come from less free places.

They are entitled to freedom. They just aren't entitled to live in our country.

You're practically telling them to suffer. I hope you know that.I won't change your mind, but I recommend going to Africa and looking around before judging them and telling them to stay put.

[West Phoencia]

Some Muslims are a problem. But there are idiots in every walk of life.

I blame the media for flaring it up and leftists for their double standards. I actually had a Democrat tell me yesterday The persecution of Muslims in the U.S is worse than what the Jews suffered under Hitler.

[Azurius]

No he didn´t but okay, nice and complete lie here that anyone who looks through the comment history can easily see.

Also, I fail to find the exact article, as said these are estimates anyway, but I find plentifull more that in fact counts up overall gigantic numbers despite that only beeing the tip of the iceberg:


https://www.quora.com/Which-religion-is ... re-history

http://markhumphrys.com/christianity.killings.html

http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm


All you need to do is know history a bit and open your eyes and be unbiased and you will easily realize how gigantic the numbers are, and how countless wars, genocides etc. are that were fought in the name of religion.

And again you are free to prove that this is all false and never happened.

Wow. Two absolutely non-biased blogs and a quora post. Seems like someone just gave us an iron-clad response!
The irony of the situation just is peachy, tho.

Hahahahaha^^

And what you say is based on what? Your OPPINION? Rofl^^

And of course is totally not biased at all^^

Also the 1 guy merely posts official data from historical events and is not even biased but okay.

[Ostroeuropa]

They are entitled to freedom. They just aren't entitled to live in our country.

You're practically telling them to suffer. I hope you know that.I won't change your mind, but I recommend going to Africa and looking around before judging them and telling them to stay put.

By allowing them here, you are practically telling us to suffer. You've been dodging my points about how our culture is regressing to accommodate them, I suspect because you don't have an answer for it but know it to be true.
What use is there in making the first world more like Africa because we sympathize with them?

If you want to change my mind, you need to come up with a way to convince most third worlders to want to integrate. Mostly, They dont want to, so all the programmes and shit we offer wont work unless we take an authoritarian approach and FORCE them to assimilate.

That means our instittuions have to change to accomodate this population, which means their rules and standards change, and our culture regresses into toleration of segregation, demands to cover up women, sexual prudism, intolerance of free speech etc.
It's already happened and is happening.

[Aelex]

Burden of proof also works vice versa as well mate since you are making the claim that for some reason christianity and islam didn´t overall kill hundreds of millions and up to a billion.

"Atheists are responsible for over two billions death, are in average more cruel and prone to commit sex crimes and in top of that smell more than your average believer. What, you ask me to source any of that? Ho hell no, since YOU are the one claiming it's false, it's up to YOU to prove it!"

[Vashty]

Some Muslims are a problem. But there are idiots in every walk of life.

I blame the media for flaring it up and leftists for their double standards. I actually had a Democrat tell me yesterday The persecution of Muslims in the U.S is worse than what the Jews suffered under Hitler.

I support your first statement and I must say the comparison between Muslims and Jews in the USA and the Holocaust is a comparison that is uncalled for. I think a leftist who has a double standard isn't a leftist. I hate Anders Brevik as much as Bin Laden. Both of them bastards.