UK Politics IV: Disraeli Gears

[Philjia]

I just don't understand the entire thing with the Labour Party!
We are a modern, leading country in the world; we enjoy massive liberal freedoms, some of the best human rights in the world; we have business big & small everywhere and encourage innovative commerce whilst also sharing in some social projects, like the NHS & state schooling. I simply don't understand the appeal of the far-left, certainly not nationally, and not in the Labour Party. Labour should be a centre-political group, as Blair & co made it, with substantial differences to the Tories but nothing dangerously radical. The appeal of radical left-wing militancy is a real danger across Europe & even in the United States, but I would have hoped that here in Britain we would have gone past having a left-wing union-nut [see what I did there?] like Jeremy Corbyn or the Shadow Chancellor as the leader of the main opposition party!

Millions of people are in deep shit. The Conservatives have failed them, they want an alternative.

[Lamadia III]

I just don't understand the entire thing with the Labour Party!
We are a modern, leading country in the world; we enjoy massive liberal freedoms, some of the best human rights in the world; we have business big & small everywhere and encourage innovative commerce whilst also sharing in some social projects, like the NHS & state schooling. I simply don't understand the appeal of the far-left, certainly not nationally, and not in the Labour Party. Labour should be a centre-political group, as Blair & co made it, with substantial differences to the Tories but nothing dangerously radical. The appeal of radical left-wing militancy is a real danger across Europe & even in the United States, but I would have hoped that here in Britain we would have gone past having a left-wing union-nut [see what I did there?] like Jeremy Corbyn or the Shadow Chancellor as the leader of the main opposition party!

Millions of people are in deep shit. The Conservatives have failed them, they want an alternative.

Absolutely not, no- I disagree.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/unem ... ver-before
More people are in employment than ever before; inflation was, until the Referendum, at very healthy levels. Taxes, although they could be lower, are at a sustainable & safe level. Crime has gone down ( https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... les-police ), and we have a very healthy financial industry: Our savings are safe.
Yes, things could be better; work needs to pay more in comparison to welfare, the new Prime Minister has inherited an economic crisis as the result of a referendum, and many areas of the country have been badly affected by normal economic activity. But crime, unemployment, and, on the greater scheme, inflation, are all down.
Please tell me, how are millions of people in 'deep shit'?

[Imperializt Russia]

Millions of people are in deep shit. The Conservatives have failed them, they want an alternative.

Absolutely not, no- I disagree.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/unem ... ver-before
More people are in employment than ever before; inflation was, until the Referendum, at very healthy levels. Taxes, although they could be lower, are at a sustainable & safe level. Crime has gone down ( https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... les-police ), and we have a very healthy financial industry: Our savings are safe.
Yes, things could be better; work needs to pay more in comparison to welfare, the new Prime Minister has inherited an economic crisis as the result of a referendum, and many areas of the country have been badly affected by normal economic activity. But crime, unemployment, and, on the greater scheme, inflation, are all down.
Please tell me, how are millions of people in 'deep shit'?

Because you look at the economy, declare it to be dece, and then assume from there that everyone must be fine because the economy's a'ight.

Which rather overlooks the point that, whether true or not, people felt their personal positions in society were sufficiently under threat to vote that they wanted to leave the EU.

[Vassenor]

Newsflash: not everyone feels the same way you do


I mean, why would people not want to vote for the party that threw the country under a bus to appease their lunatic fringe and is more interested in creating a police state than dealing with the fallout?

[Val Halla]

I just don't understand the entire thing with the Labour Party!
We are a modern, leading country in the world; we enjoy massive liberal freedoms, some of the best human rights in the world; we have business big & small everywhere and encourage innovative commerce whilst also sharing in some social projects, like the NHS & state schooling. I simply don't understand the appeal of the far-left, certainly not nationally, and not in the Labour Party. Labour should be a centre-political group, as Blair & co made it, with substantial differences to the Tories but nothing dangerously radical. The appeal of radical left-wing militancy is a real danger across Europe & even in the United States, but I would have hoped that here in Britain we would have gone past having a left-wing union-nut [see what I did there?] like Jeremy Corbyn or the Shadow Chancellor as the leader of the main opposition party!

If you can so easily deny the Tory induced issues facing the poor, unemployed or disabled, then sure there's no economic issue. But, y'know, there are issues

[Souseiseki]

Absolutely not, no- I disagree.

it doesn't really matter whether you disagree. that changes nothing.

More people are in employment than ever before;

employment is the most fudged number there is. it's good you mentioned the referendum though, because even if we accept that everything you've said is true and that nobody has died or suffered under the conservative government it's about to completely undo everything and fuck it all up.

Taxes, although they could be lower, are at a sustainable & safe level.

middle class problems

and we have a very healthy financial industry: Our savings are safe.

is this a joke

and many areas of the country have been badly affected by normal economic activity.

oh i so very much want to hear you explain this one

we enjoy massive liberal freedoms

speak for yourself

like the NHS & state schooling

hold up there. how are the NHS and state schooling doing at this fine moment?

I simply don't understand the appeal of the far-left

if they're not calling for revolution and seizing the means of production they're not far-left. these are the minimum requirements for far-left. you must be at least this tall to be far-left.

Labour should be a centre-political group, as Blair & co made it, with substantial differences to the Tories but nothing dangerously radical.

substantial differences? like what? what differences do you imagine could be?

The appeal of radical left-wing militancy is a real danger across Europe & even in the United States, but I would have hoped that here in Britain we would have gone past having a left-wing union-nut [see what I did there?] like Jeremy Corbyn or the Shadow Chancellor as the leader of the main opposition party!

this is the part where "you being pretty much born into the establishment already" comes in

[Lamadia III]

it doesn't really matter whether you disagree. that changes nothing.

Outlining your view before you explain why you hold it is elementary-stuff.

speak for yourself

We all have the right to vote; the right to peacefully assemble; the right to publically oppose the government; the right to leave our job.... Please enlighten me to why you think that some of us in this country have more rights than others.

middle class problems

High tax disturbs business across the country; I really can't speak for you, but I certainly want to see communities live on rather than be crushed by firms like Nissan moving abroad & taking their jobs with them because of extreme taxes.

hold up there. how are the NHS and state schooling doing at this fine moment?

Both are free at the point of delivery & will remain so during this Government certainly, both are good, one a benchmark, systems.

oh i so very much want to hear you explain this one

Immigration, as an example. Studies show that immigration into a country will rise the better an economy is doing (excluding many other factors I am well aware of.) Large numbers of migrants at uncontrolled levels as we have seen can have the negative effect of pushing down wages (according to the Bank of England)- thus, normal economic activity can harm some, and this must be worked around.

Newsflash: not everyone feels the same way you do

Well evidently, Vassenor- that is why over 100,000 voted Jeremy Corbyn as Labour Party leader!

I mean, why would people not want to vote for the party that threw the country under a bus to appease their lunatic fringe and is more interested in creating a police state than dealing with the fallout?

Presuming you are talking about the EU Referendum, then you might call 'throwing under the bus' what I would call an act of democracy. Surely I shouldn't support the UK political system because it allows a lunatic fringe group in the Labour Party to take control of the Government despite being democratically elected, but support it when my party wins? Oh yes, I forgot about democracy. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=democracy)

[Vassenor]

Well, as long as you're happy with the fact that said referendum wiped out the last seven years of economic growth.

[Souseiseki]

We all have the right to vote; the right to peacefully assemble; the right to publically oppose the government; the right to leave our job.... Please enlighten me to why you think that some of us in this country have more rights than others.

some people get to have sex or watch people having sex without risking the government kicking their door in. others don't.

e: ok that sounds really bad out of context but lol we're worse than pretty much all of our neighbours

High tax disturbs business across the country; I really can't speak for you, but I certainly want to see communities live on rather than be crushed by firms like Nissan moving abroad & taking their jobs with them because of extreme taxes.

but you're ok with the referendum becauase ~*democracy*~? even if it has the same if not worse effect?

Both are free at the point of delivery & will remain so during this Government certainly, both are good, one a benchmark, systems.

the actual answers are "getting slowly and surely strangled to death" and "almost forced to become academies ahahaha"

[Vassenor]

High tax disturbs business across the country; I really can't speak for you, but I certainly want to see communities live on rather than be crushed by firms like Nissan moving abroad & taking their jobs with them because of extreme taxes.

No, they're more likely to leave because the Conservative government wants to take away their tariff-free access to the European single market.

[Lamadia III]

some people get to have sex or watch people having sex without risking the government kicking their door in. others don't.

e: ok that sounds really bad out of context but lol we're worse than pretty much all of our neighbours

Everybody in this country had the right to chose a spouse or partner; gay or heterosexual. They have the right to marry that person, and, if both consenting, they can pursue a sexual relationship. Pornography however vile is also legal, provided it is between consenting adults.

but you're ok with the referendum becauase ~*democracy*~? even if it has the same if not worse effect?

If Labour wins the election, regardless of the fact that I did not support them, then I still support democracy, yes! How can you even make that point as a sensible one?

the actual answers are "getting slowly and surely strangled to death" and "almost forced to become academies ahahaha"

Social factors/norms, such as obesity, are far more damaging to the NHS than detailed & careful cuts;'the former Chancellor this year cut £1.1bn from the NHS budget; obesity costs four times this much, as this article shows. https://www.noo.org.uk/NOO_about_obesit ... and_health

[Vassenor]

But now the NHS has to cover those same costs with less money. #logic

[Valaran]

Well, as long as you're happy with the fact that said referendum wiped out the last seven years of economic growth.

Its a bit premature to be stating this.

[Lamadia III]

But now the NHS has to cover those same costs with less money. #logic

The point is that cuts are not destroying the NHS; the cost of diseases which can be prevented by individuals, many of which are low-income earners who contribute far less to the NHS' budget than for example my parents, are far greater than austerity. As a result, if people ensured that they try to lead a healthy lifestyle, then this cost would be massively reduced, and that cuts could be implemented with little effect. #logic

[Souseiseki]

They have the right to marry that person, and, if both consenting, they can pursue a sexual relationship.

do you know what you can and cannot legally consent to in this country?

Pornography however vile is also legal, provided it is between consenting adults.

incorrect

Social factors/norms, such as obesity, are far more damaging to the NHS than detailed & careful cuts;'the former Chancellor this year cut £1.1bn from the NHS budget; obesity costs four times this much, as this article shows. https://www.noo.org.uk/NOO_about_obesit ... and_health

i am extremely amused that even after all the things showing cuts were poorly planned across the board you think they were "careful" cuts

[Vassenor]

Well, as long as you're happy with the fact that said referendum wiped out the last seven years of economic growth.

Its a bit premature to be stating this.

I beg to differ.

Data from IHS Markit's Purchasing Managers' Index, or PMI, shows a fall to 47.7 in July, the lowest level since April in 2009. A reading below 50 indicates contraction.
Both manufacturing and service sectors saw a decline in output and orders.

[Vassenor]

Pornography however vile is also legal, provided it is between consenting adults.

Does anyone have a list of all of the acts the Conservatives banned from appearing in UK-produced material?

[Val Halla]

But now the NHS has to cover those same costs with less money. #logic

The point is that cuts are not destroying the NHS; the cost of diseases which can be prevented by individuals, many of which are low-income earners who contribute far less to the NHS' budget than for example my parents, are far greater than austerity. As a result, if people ensured that they try to lead a healthy lifestyle, then this cost would be massively reduced, and that cuts could be implemented with little effect. #logic

The NHS has many mental health inadequacies, something that can't be fixed by living a "healthy lifestyle". The fact that children have been made to wait months to get a counsellor, the fact that the waiting list for one service is over 3 years, you can't deny that isn't stupid.

[Lamadia III]

The point is that cuts are not destroying the NHS; the cost of diseases which can be prevented by individuals, many of which are low-income earners who contribute far less to the NHS' budget than for example my parents, are far greater than austerity. As a result, if people ensured that they try to lead a healthy lifestyle, then this cost would be massively reduced, and that cuts could be implemented with little effect. #logic

The NHS has many mental health inadequacies, something that can't be fixed by living a "healthy lifestyle". The fact that children have been made to wait months to get a counsellor, the fact that the waiting list for one service is over 3 years, you can't deny that isn't stupid.

Which is why the Government has invested millions into new mental health services. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new- ... lth-crisis
And I was discussing obesity....

[Vassenor]

The NHS has many mental health inadequacies, something that can't be fixed by living a "healthy lifestyle". The fact that children have been made to wait months to get a counsellor, the fact that the waiting list for one service is over 3 years, you can't deny that isn't stupid.

Which is why the Government has invested millions into new mental health services. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new- ... lth-crisis
And I was discussing obesity....

I'll believe that when the GICs actually stick to their "18 weeks from referral to appointment" legal requirement.

[Valaran]

Its a bit premature to be stating this.

I beg to differ.

Data from IHS Markit's Purchasing Managers' Index, or PMI, shows a fall to 47.7 in July, the lowest level since April in 2009. A reading below 50 indicates contraction.
Both manufacturing and service sectors saw a decline in output and orders.

I'm not sure you've understood what the indicator means.

This means the industry is contracting at a rate last seen in 2009. Not that the absolute level of output is as low as it was in 2009.

Its unknown how long or protracted this contraction may last for, and so it cannot be said it will undo the last 7 years of growth, which would require a sustained period of considerable contraction.

[Lamadia III]

Its a bit premature to be stating this.

I beg to differ.

Data from IHS Markit's Purchasing Managers' Index, or PMI, shows a fall to 47.7 in July, the lowest level since April in 2009. A reading below 50 indicates contraction.
Both manufacturing and service sectors saw a decline in output and orders.

These are only indications; they do not necessarily mean that output has dropped to 2009 levels.

---

It is my mum's birthday in a weeks time; my parents have invited our local MP, Philip Hammond, to come to the after-do party at my home.
I doubt if the Chancellor will be able to come; he is the Chancellor, after all, needless to say if he does I would be very interested to hear about the future of austerity. Clearly the effect of the EU Referendum on business has been great, and, although a drop in Sterling was needed, the danger now to business, investment & services is a great one (as a result, planned margins by 2020 have been cancelled, as you will all be aware.) To stimulate the economy, Osborne introduced a lower corporation tax a few weeks ago, and again a small alternation to spending cuts could help regenerate growth;
however, to address the points in the thread, and this is the point I want to be taken from this post:
) The NHS is a multi-billion service, and one of the best in the world. Regardless of necessary spending cuts, which are required, it is important that the individual takes responsibility to help reduce the burden of preventable conditions, such as obesity. Wherever this means diverting some funds to the education service (less than £2 million to save £4 billion seems entirely reasonable), or helping push for a new means of people funding the NHS is up for debate, but clearly this country has a healthcare problem which lies not with austerity, but with the way the health service is treated.

[Frank Zipper]

Please tell me, how are millions of people in 'deep shit'?

They are going to be the first generation in a long time to be poorer than their parents.

For a lot of people it is going to be very hard to get on the housing ladder because house prices are so high that they cannot even afford the deposit in order to get a mortgage. It is hard to save up for a mortgage because interest rates are so low, and rents are increasing.

Their pensions are going to be lower than the previous generation, because they are going to be paying to make up the shortfall for the previous generations pensions.

The quality of a lot of the low skill jobs available is declining, low pay, zero hours contracts, poor working conditions. For those with skills the rewards for working in the traditional professions like the law and medicine are also declining. The costs of higher education are putting it further out of reach of large segments of the population unless they put themselves into long term debt.

For all Osborne's austerity, ordinary people have not felt the benefit, he consistently passed on the savings to the rich, not the poor or the middle class.

Our economic problems are likely to be worse over the next few years because of Brexit.

The Conservatives have allowed an increasing wealth gap, that leaves large sections of the population with a decreasing stake in the status quo. Consequently people are more easily drawn to extremist politics on both the right and the left.

[Souseiseki]

Pornography however vile is also legal, provided it is between consenting adults.

Does anyone have a list of all of the acts the Conservatives banned from appearing in UK-produced material?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/a- ... 97174.html

there are of course also the restrictions on all material regardless of whether it was produced (fun fact: it used to be the case that as long as everyone involved was a consenting adult the resulting material was legal. this was considered a "loophole". it has now been closed.)

e: there's also the blanket of obscenity that literally goes "anything is illegal as long as the jury thinks most people think it should be illegal". no. that's literally it. this is how it works.

[Val Halla]

The NHS has many mental health inadequacies, something that can't be fixed by living a "healthy lifestyle". The fact that children have been made to wait months to get a counsellor, the fact that the waiting list for one service is over 3 years, you can't deny that isn't stupid.

Which is why the Government has invested millions into new mental health services. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new- ... lth-crisis
And I was discussing obesity....

Until it quietly gets swept under the rug. I'm facing an 8 month waiting list for my service.