UK Politics IV: Disraeli Gears

[Imperializt Russia]

Why fourteen? What replaces the GCSE-level equivalent and A-level equivalent education that is currently expected of children?

What you mean expecting people that don't like it and can't do it to sit for four years wasting time instead of doing something useful towards a career?

Also just makes the qualifications less rigorous to account for them. Current GCSEs in most subjects can be learnt by 14 anyway.

Maybe they could, but they aren't and haven't been, so proposing it become so would be a radical compression in the curriculum, since we're now throwing away two years that we previously had.

[Alvecia]

Why fourteen? What replaces the GCSE-level equivalent and A-level equivalent education that is currently expected of children?

What you mean expecting people that don't like it and can't do it to sit for four years wasting time instead of doing something useful towards a career?

Also just makes the qualifications less rigorous to account for them. Current GCSEs in most subjects can be learnt by 14 anyway.

Well technically you can get an apprenticeship or part time work while in training from 16 to 18, so it's only really 2 years.

[Katalaysia]

I guess technically you could learn GCSE spec (well, the type I had, GCSEs are now getting harder so that the politicians can look good, but that's another story) at 14, but the emotional pressure of sitting exams that might alter how your life goes and the requirement to lock yourself out of career paths? I was barely ready for that at 16, let alone 14.

The thing is with student debt is that it's this weird thing where it's not not debt, but it's not debt in the traditional sense either, in that it doesn't tank your credit score like American debt for university does.

Also, if people know they want a more practical career, there's BTECs. I know there's ones for Hair and Beauty and IT (which the government, again, are trying to get rid of to make it look like they're making education harder) and a quick google indicates there's also engineering and customer service, the main problem is access to them.

[Imperializt Russia]

I guess technically you could learn GCSE spec (well, the type I had, GCSEs are now getting harder so that the politicians can look good, but that's another story) at 14, but the emotional pressure of sitting exams that might alter how your life goes and the requirement to lock yourself out of career paths? I was barely ready for that at 16, let alone 14.

The thing is with student debt is that it's this weird thing where it's not not debt, but it's not debt in the traditional sense either, in that it doesn't tank your credit score like American debt for university does.

Also, if people know they want a more practical career, there's BTECs. I know there's ones for Hair and Beauty and IT (which the government, again, are trying to get rid of to make it look like they're making education harder) and a quick google indicates there's also engineering and customer service, the main problem is access to them.

Time was, you could get a BTEC in any GCSE-level subject.

The problem was, they were implemented in a garbage fashion, as a cheap way to boost grades.
I liked BTECs for academic subjects, in theory. I don't feel that exams are a worthwhile representation of a person's ability to understand and apply academic knowledge and methods. Coursework is. BTECs were all coursework.

But academic BTECs were basically just constantly getting the kids to keep revising their coursework until it met the required grade boundary. Hence why the government almost banned them (fucking over a local school near me that went balls-deep on the things).

[Katalaysia]

But academic BTECs were basically just constantly getting the kids to keep revising their coursework until it met the required grade boundary. Hence why the government almost banned them (fucking over a local school near me that went balls-deep on the things).

Believe me, it hasn't changed much since then. I did two BTECs in year 11 just because my school wanted people to leave with more qualifications. So now I have a pass in Sports Science that I'll never use and a merit in IT which I have to admit has been mildly helpful for my Computer Science A-level, but had great potential to be pointless as well.

[Eastfield Lodge]

England's rates for higher education are... stupid. But hey, at least you're not at American levels of irrational student debt and educational costs!

No. We're far beyond.

New graduates in the UK are in about £45,000 of debt, which continually rises because of inflation and also interest.
Someone said yesterday that the average US student is in $29,000 of debt (about £22,000 today) at graduation - with 66% of students falling $1000 either side of that average.

I don't have £45,000 of debt quite yet. Just totting it up now, I think I'm in thirty grand's worth of debt (and I'm definitely about to extend this if I can). This is because I was on the £3000 fees (though a cousin was on the £1000 fees yet I'm sure he somehow racked up £20-30,000 of debt).
But the £1000 generation are having their terms changed retroactively; mine will soon follow if they haven't already.

About to start my third year, and I've already racked up around £25,000 over the first two years - adding another £13,000 this year as well.

[Arkolon]

Hate to bring back topics from pages ago but...

Basic economics tells us that if the supply goes down, then just that will happen; the amount of drugs will go down.

Basic economics also contends that burning up supply will cause prices to rise, and since price is a signal you will skew incentives for people to produce more illicit substances in new and different, most likely more dangerous ways because the profit margins are now even higher. If you want drug use to go down, and use some kind of supply-demand model to go explain yourself, you want to reduce the demand for drugs, not necessarily its supply.

[Lamadia III]

I think my mother ended up paying in the region of £400,000 for her university fees; this is a huge amount, and that is because she was training in a medical field. The high price of tuition, however, does not mean that it is the Government's responsibility to pay for it; this is a very dangerous attitude to have, as it breeds the idea of your life being in the hands of the state, which is not only immoral, but idle.

[Eastfield Lodge]

I think my mother ended up paying in the region of £400,000 for her university fees; this is a huge amount, and that is because she was training in a medical field. The high price of tuition, however, does not mean that it is the Government's responsibility to pay for it; this is a very dangerous attitude to have, as it breeds the idea of your life being in the hands of the state, which is not only immoral, but idle.

Where the hell did your mother study?

[Lamadia III]

I think my mother ended up paying in the region of £400,000 for her university fees; this is a huge amount, and that is because she was training in a medical field. The high price of tuition, however, does not mean that it is the Government's responsibility to pay for it; this is a very dangerous attitude to have, as it breeds the idea of your life being in the hands of the state, which is not only immoral, but idle.

Where the hell did your mother study?

A range of universities & medical institutions for many years.

[Souseiseki]

did she go into cropping debt for it

e: or was or family rich enough to pay for it

[Eastfield Lodge]

Where the hell did your mother study?

A range of universities & medical institutions for many years.

Presumably all private as well.

[Lamadia III]

did she go into cropping debt for it

e: or was or family rich enough to pay for it

She was fortunate to be able to pay it without any debt or loans.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

I think my mother ended up paying in the region of £400,000 for her university fees; this is a huge amount, and that is because she was training in a medical field. The high price of tuition, however, does not mean that it is the Government's responsibility to pay for it; this is a very dangerous attitude to have, as it breeds the idea of your life being in the hands of the state, which is not only immoral, but idle.

Where the hell did your mother study?

I suspect she read "How to get your daughter to believe nonsense figures."

[Lamadia III]

Where the hell did your mother study?

I suspect she read "How to get your daughter to believe nonsense figures."

I beg your pardon?

[Conscentia]

I think my mother ended up paying in the region of £400,000 for her university fees; this is a huge amount, and that is because she was training in a medical field. The high price of tuition, however, does not mean that it is the Government's responsibility to pay for it; this is a very dangerous attitude to have, as it breeds the idea of your life being in the hands of the state, which is not only immoral, but idle.

Because wanting an education is idleness?

[Anywhere Else But Here]

I think my mother ended up paying in the region of £400,000 for her university fees; this is a huge amount, and that is because she was training in a medical field. The high price of tuition, however, does not mean that it is the Government's responsibility to pay for it; this is a very dangerous attitude to have, as it breeds the idea of your life being in the hands of the state, which is not only immoral, but idle.

Because wanting an education is idleness?

Wanting the government to fund education=dangerous socialism
Dangerous socialism=politics of envy
Envy=sin
Sloth=sin
Sloth=idleness
QED.

[Lamadia III]

I think my mother ended up paying in the region of £400,000 for her university fees; this is a huge amount, and that is because she was training in a medical field. The high price of tuition, however, does not mean that it is the Government's responsibility to pay for it; this is a very dangerous attitude to have, as it breeds the idea of your life being in the hands of the state, which is not only immoral, but idle.

Because wanting an education is idleness?

Not at all; demanding the government cover this cost without you having to pay the money back is, however.

[Ariasteppe]

I think my mother ended up paying in the region of £400,000 for her university fees; this is a huge amount, and that is because she was training in a medical field. The high price of tuition, however, does not mean that it is the Government's responsibility to pay for it; this is a very dangerous attitude to have, as it breeds the idea of your life being in the hands of the state, which is not only immoral, but idle.

Woah woah woah, steady there; that's quite a conflation to make. There's definitely a large area between the poles of "Funded education for the future of our country" and "State has total control over peoples' lives", I'm sure you'll agree. Among my number of objections to the conflation of these two, one strong one of these would definitely be that higher education encourages independence, so I highly doubt it encourages an attitude of dependency, never mind totalitarianism.

I myself grew up in a pretty damn poor family. I had a gap year after A-Levels (not of my own volition; exam boards fucked up and an inquest was filed which took a while). Earned a fair penny, then wanted to augment my skills in the field and do research. Worked during my undergrad. Still required government assistance. And even in spite of that assistance, it was still somewhat of a struggle. I had to quit work during my third year because the stress of uni + work together triggered my manic depression, and then financial issues deepened it (turns out just working uni with little expendable income isn't healthy). In spite of all that, I still passed with a First and am now a scientific researcher, but people shouldn't have to move heaven and earth like this just to get a degree, and my story is far from individual. This notion that people are just lazy and just need to work more is blind at best and outright insulting at worst, particularly considering university alone is so demanding it's become a slaughterhouse for the psychologically vulnerable.

[Katalaysia]

When GCSEs and A-Levels were vital to get most careers, they became free. Why shouldn't the same occur to Bachelors' degrees, other than the government not wanting to pay for anything that isn't their own salary?

[Vassenor]

I think my mother ended up paying in the region of £400,000 for her university fees; this is a huge amount, and that is because she was training in a medical field. The high price of tuition, however, does not mean that it is the Government's responsibility to pay for it; this is a very dangerous attitude to have, as it breeds the idea of your life being in the hands of the state, which is not only immoral, but idle.

That sounds suspiciously like "I managed to do it for myself, therefore everyone else should have to too."

[Arkolon]

When GCSEs and A-Levels were vital to get most careers, they became free. Why shouldn't the same occur to Bachelors' degrees, other than the government not wanting to pay for anything that isn't their own salary?

Devil's advocate here, but won't making them free mean everyone will be able to get one and a new, quaternary form of education will replace it so students can differentiate themselves with new and further education (or licensing) that they probably need to take out a loan for to attend?

[Chestaan]

I think my mother ended up paying in the region of £400,000 for her university fees; this is a huge amount, and that is because she was training in a medical field. The high price of tuition, however, does not mean that it is the Government's responsibility to pay for it; this is a very dangerous attitude to have, as it breeds the idea of your life being in the hands of the state, which is not only immoral, but idle.

That sounds suspiciously like "I managed to do it for myself, therefore everyone else should have to too."

I highly doubt she did it by herself anyway. Most likely mummy and daddy paid for it, as I'm sure it will be the case for Lamadia.

[Ariasteppe]

When GCSEs and A-Levels were vital to get most careers, they became free. Why shouldn't the same occur to Bachelors' degrees, other than the government not wanting to pay for anything that isn't their own salary?

Devil's advocate here, but won't making them free mean everyone will be able to get one and a new, quaternary form of education will replace it so students can differentiate themselves with new and further education (or licensing) that they probably need to take out a loan for to attend?

Inevitably so as the amount of knowledge expands on our shoulders. Masters Degrees might end up getting more demand and end up requiring 2 years as the amount of content expands. Maybe at some point we'll get to the point of just being able to download knowledge and skills like in The Matrix, but yeah.

[Lamadia III]

When GCSEs and A-Levels were vital to get most careers, they became free. Why shouldn't the same occur to Bachelors' degrees, other than the government not wanting to pay for anything that isn't their own salary?

That kind of destroys the point of a degree; if the Government pays for it, more people will pursue them, they will lose value, and something else (a higher degree which the Government will not pay for,) will take their place. The more of a commodity there is, generally, the less value it has.