UK Referendum Thread [Moderator Sanctioned]

[Divitaen]

Yes, but these non-white immigrants have to deal with racist attitudes in universities and when applying for employment and housing, whereas low-income whites don't have to deal with the same racial discrimination. Of course the socio-economic hurdles need to be brought down, but race obviously makes a difference too. I'm not going to apologise for advocating for policies based on race when racial privilege actually exists in reality.

To do so when not presenting solutions to neoliberal economics is fueling the problem and an absurdly bad idea. We're seeing the evidence of that unfold across the world, right now.

I can do both, its not mutually exclusive. I can advocate for economic policies to redress socio-economic inequality and the excesses of financial capitalism. But I can do so while also condemning racism and dog-whistle politics where it exists, and the Leave campaign was a textbook example of dog-whistle politics.

[HMS Vanguard]

Even the original bus claim wasn't technically incorrect, just kind of misleading. There was worse bullshit from Remain (and indeed worse from other parts of Leave, that just got less traction for whatever reason).

Kind of misleading? That's quite an understatement don't you think?

Why? I doubt more than a handful of people in the public knows the difference between 350m and 100m anyway. Both enter most peoples' brains as "big_number".

[Ostroeuropa]

To do so when not presenting solutions to neoliberal economics is fueling the problem and an absurdly bad idea. We're seeing the evidence of that unfold across the world, right now.

I can do both, its not mutually exclusive. I can advocate for economic policies to redress socio-economic inequality and the excesses of financial capitalism. But I can do so while also condemning racism and dog-whistle politics where it exists, and the Leave campaign was a textbook example of dog-whistle politics.

Here's the thing though. If you do one without the other, the nationalist factions are going to continue to grow.

If you see racism, dont just argue against it. Argue for positive solutions in its place. That's what the left wing has failed to do consistently.

Whether you do that or not isn't relevant really, the parties aren't doing it, and they aren't doing it because they don't understand the problem of their ideology, or can't confront it, or whatever.

[Divitaen]

Yes, but these non-white immigrants have to deal with racist attitudes in universities and when applying for employment and housing, whereas low-income whites don't have to deal with the same racial discrimination. Of course the socio-economic hurdles need to be brought down, but race obviously makes a difference too. I'm not going to apologise for advocating for policies based on race when racial privilege actually exists in reality.

What does non-white immigration have to do with the EU?

The EU is the main source of white immigration. It is barely relevant to non-white immigration.

Well that post was specifically about a previous conversation regarding integration different racial groups as a result of immigration, so I was talking about non-white immigrants with regards to the previous question.

As for Brexit specifically, most of the examples of race-baiting I cited were with regards to Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants. However, Farage's 'Breaking Point' poster more than proves that Leave was willing to bring non-white immigrants outside of the EU into the debate, presumably because Brexit would allow UK greater control over asylum and refugee policy and would help Britain limit the flow of Muslim immigrants and refugees, an argument which helped Farage because it enabled him to play on Islamophobic sentiments to help Leave win the day.

[HMS Vanguard]

Also, what kind of Remain lies are you talking about? Most campaigners like Osborne simply repeated what all the major economic institutions and research groups were saying in published reports anyway.

The French government said that Calais would be unlashed into the Chunnel; that claim was explicitly repudiated within hours.

Obsorne promised a punitive Brexit budget that has also been repudiated; he is now saying that Britain's economic position post-EU is strong.

These are much more fundamental issues than 100m vs 350m of hypothetical money.

[Divitaen]

Kind of misleading? That's quite an understatement don't you think?

Why? I doubt more than a handful of people in the public knows the difference between 350m and 100m anyway. Both enter most peoples' brains as "big_number".

You said in an earlier post far back that in democracy we can't be condescending about the voters, and that applies here too. We have to give the public factually accurate information and allow them to decide based on that information. Sure, maybe it wouldn't make a difference, maybe it would have, that's not for us to decide, and that's not an excuse for exaggerated claims.

[Ostroeuropa]

https://i.sli.mg/npeWLn.png

It's that sentiment again. It comes up everywhere.

[HMS Vanguard]

What does non-white immigration have to do with the EU?

The EU is the main source of white immigration. It is barely relevant to non-white immigration.

Well that post was specifically about a previous conversation regarding integration different racial groups as a result of immigration, so I was talking about non-white immigrants with regards to the previous question.

As for Brexit specifically, most of the examples of race-baiting I cited were with regards to Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants.

Is your position that Bulgarians and Romanians are not white?

However, Farage's 'Breaking Point' poster more than proves that Leave was willing to bring non-white immigrants outside of the EU into the debate, presumably because Brexit would allow UK greater control over asylum and refugee policy and would help Britain limit the flow of Muslim immigrants and refugees, an argument which helped Farage because it enabled him to play on Islamophobic sentiments to help Leave win the day.

I would say this is a much better example of Leave bullshit than the 350m bus. What Farage was implying had really nothing to do with the debate.

[Divitaen]

Also, what kind of Remain lies are you talking about? Most campaigners like Osborne simply repeated what all the major economic institutions and research groups were saying in published reports anyway.

The French government said that Calais would be unlashed into the Chunnel; that claim was explicitly repudiated within hours.

Obsorne promised a punitive Brexit budget that has also been repudiated; he is now saying that Britain's economic position post-EU is strong.

These are much more fundamental issues than 100m vs 350m of hypothetical money.

British Remain campaigners can't possibly be held responsible for the French government's comments. As for Osborne, I opposed his austerity idea as well as economic blackmail, and obviously austerity in the face of an economic recession makes absolutely no sense, but where did he say Britain's post-EU economic position is strong? His position now and then has been that Brexit would hurt global financial markets, cost jobs and hurt GDP growth, and as far as I know he hasn't repudiated any of that.

[HMS Vanguard]

Why? I doubt more than a handful of people in the public knows the difference between 350m and 100m anyway. Both enter most peoples' brains as "big_number".

You said in an earlier post far back that in democracy we can't be condescending about the voters

No I didn't. I am condescending about the proles all the time. What I don't support is changing the rules of the game because you lost, which is a repudiation of the rule of law.

[Divitaen]

Well that post was specifically about a previous conversation regarding integration different racial groups as a result of immigration, so I was talking about non-white immigrants with regards to the previous question.

As for Brexit specifically, most of the examples of race-baiting I cited were with regards to Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants.

Is your position that Bulgarians and Romanians are not white?

However, Farage's 'Breaking Point' poster more than proves that Leave was willing to bring non-white immigrants outside of the EU into the debate, presumably because Brexit would allow UK greater control over asylum and refugee policy and would help Britain limit the flow of Muslim immigrants and refugees, an argument which helped Farage because it enabled him to play on Islamophobic sentiments to help Leave win the day.

I would say this is a much better example of Leave bullshit than the 350m bus. What Farage was implying had really nothing to do with the debate.

Bulgarians and Romanians are white. Like I said, my post in response to Ostroeuropa was about the issue of non-white immigration specifically because we were talking about ethnic integration separate from the issue of Brexit. When it comes to the issue of Brexit, I've always talked about race-baiting regarding Muslim immigration and immigrants from Bulgaria and Romania, who, as you said, are white, but still the targets of racism and hateful vitriol.

And yes, this was an example of Leave bullshit, and not just that, it was racist, xenophobic bullshit too. The only reason Farage tried to inject Muslim refugees into the debate is because he knew it would gin up enthusiastic support for Leave amongst Islamophobes in the British population, that's why he pushed that issue so hard.

[Gauthier]

Is your position that Bulgarians and Romanians are not white?


I would say this is a much better example of Leave bullshit than the 350m bus. What Farage was implying had really nothing to do with the debate.

Bulgarians and Romanians are white. Like I said, my post in response to Ostroeuropa was about the issue of non-white immigration specifically because we were talking about ethnic integration separate from the issue of Brexit. When it comes to the issue of Brexit, I've always talked about race-baiting regarding Muslim immigration and immigrants from Bulgaria and Romania, who, as you said, are white, but still the targets of racism and hateful vitriol.

And yes, this was an example of Leave bullshit, and not just that, it was racist, xenophobic bullshit too. The only reason Farage tried to inject Muslim refugees into the debate is because he knew it would gin up enthusiastic support for Leave amongst Islamophobes in the British population, that's why he pushed that issue so hard.

Again, the irony being that Brexit does nothing to stem Muslim immigration and in fact means France is no longer obligated to screen any that want to go to the UK.

[Divitaen]

You said in an earlier post far back that in democracy we can't be condescending about the voters

No I didn't. I am condescending about the proles all the time. What I don't support is changing the rules of the game because you lost, which is a repudiation of the rule of law.

To be fair, if we're talking about law, the EU referendum isn't even binding to begin with in terms of law. But if you're referring to having a second referendum on a bunch of made-up rules then yes I completely agree.

[Divitaen]

Bulgarians and Romanians are white. Like I said, my post in response to Ostroeuropa was about the issue of non-white immigration specifically because we were talking about ethnic integration separate from the issue of Brexit. When it comes to the issue of Brexit, I've always talked about race-baiting regarding Muslim immigration and immigrants from Bulgaria and Romania, who, as you said, are white, but still the targets of racism and hateful vitriol.

And yes, this was an example of Leave bullshit, and not just that, it was racist, xenophobic bullshit too. The only reason Farage tried to inject Muslim refugees into the debate is because he knew it would gin up enthusiastic support for Leave amongst Islamophobes in the British population, that's why he pushed that issue so hard.

Again, the irony being that Brexit does nothing to stem Muslim immigration and in fact means France is no longer obligated to screen any that want to go to the UK.

Exactly, the issue just popped up to scare racist, xenophobic voters and stir up their racial hatred into supporting Leave.

[CoraSpia]

Cameron sounds very upbeat in this debate.that's starting now on five live.

[Fartsniffage]

Cameron sounds very upbeat in this debate.that's starting now on five live.

Of course he does. He knows he's dodged a massive bullet by "resigning" so promptly after the result.

[Souseiseki]

Also, what kind of Remain lies are you talking about? Most campaigners like Osborne simply repeated what all the major economic institutions and research groups were saying in published reports anyway.

The French government said that Calais would be unlashed into the Chunnel; that claim was explicitly repudiated within hours.

Obsorne promised a punitive Brexit budget that has also been repudiated; he is now saying that Britain's economic position post-EU is strong.

These are much more fundamental issues than 100m vs 350m of hypothetical money.

osborne has always supported punitive budgets and him turning around to an actual sensible policy is a surprise for everything

he's saying britian's economic position post-EU is strong because that is what he would say regardless of how strong it was

[Souseiseki]

i mean did you actually expect the chancellors speech to clam the markets was going to be "our economy is fucked lol"

[Ostroeuropa]

i mean did you actually expect the chancellors speech to clam the markets was going to be "our economy is fucked lol"

I thought he'd try something a bit less bland and obvious. Maybe do some weird stuff like breakdancing in the middle of the speech, or spreading his legs really far apart again. Boy, wouldn't that have been something.

"You can all have faith in the british government solving this crisis."
*suddenly weird pose*

[The Archregimancy]

i mean did you actually expect the chancellors speech to clam the markets was going to be "our economy is fucked lol"

Well, for precedent there's always Alistair Darling's famously off-message August 2008 newspaper interview where he rather bluntly stated that the economic circumstances 'are arguably the worst they've been in 60 years. And I think it's going to be more profound and long-lasting than people thought.'

[Vassenor]

Those are some pretty dramatic u-turns from the press right there.

[Valaran]

Those are some pretty dramatic u-turns from the press right there.

eh, they'll just focus to the big event. It doesn't necessarily mean they've suddenly changed stances, but something as 'doomladen' as the post-Brexit turmoil makes for good reading. Fear is in vogue.

That being said, that Torygrpah analysis was pretty neat.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

And I agree that the Remain campaign failed to make a positive case for immigration, largely because the pro-Remain Tories were themselves against immigration but were pro-Remain for purely economic reasons. As far as I remember only Sadiq Khan ever came close to arguing that more immigration made Britain a more multicultural and tolerant society. The lack of this positive counter-veiling narrative to Leave's xenophobia and racism obviously makes your side's case appear much less compelling. But its also a sign of how potent racism and xenophobia is in British society and that is indeed contemptible. I don't see how it can be seen as anything less than contemptible. I don't think "racial tolerance" is an "upper-middle class value", it ought to be a universal human value.

Racial tolerance /=/ a cultural vacuum where you don't assert the native culture is a positive thing and exists on its own, and assert only minorities have cultures while we're just a void staring blankly into the distance surrounded by minorities who have cultures, and that is our defining role.

I suspect part of the reason they do this is they are, once again, completely detatched from most of the country and attempting to articulate cultural connections to them would reveal just how detatched they are.

A positive case for immigration would have failed. The "MULTICULTURAL SOCIETY!" shit has failed consistently to draw support, because of the problems caused by ghettoization. So again, unless focus is given to the economic failures of the elite (Which they refuse to do), it's pointless.
Instead, they just scream that the voters are stupid and racist rather than confront their own incompetence and dangerous ideology.

Many of us on the economic left have said it repeatedly, and people do not listen either.

The problem with our economy is NOT multiculturalism. It isn't "the brown people coming over stealing my jobs". It's that the entire system in which business depends is one based on neoliberal exploitation.

Neoliberalism, furthermore, is a product of the economic right, not the economic left. We have nothing to do with the economic wing that gave you one of the most stupid methods of thinking about the economy: Reaganomics and the "trickle down" effect, or supply-side economics.

The social leftists are right, but many of the social left are also from the economic right wing so, while they are right, they defend the same system of economics, or refuse to talk about the system that has given to the current situation.

That's why multiculturalism is irrelevant. Culturalism has nothing to do with the fact the rich have been fucking you over for decades.

[Souseiseki]

ostro how do you feel about the increase in incidents of racial abuse or people literally being beaten unconscious by people after the referndum

[Vassenor]

Sterling value falls further, reaching a thirty-one year record low.