UK Referendum Thread [Moderator Sanctioned]

[Divitaen]

It doesn't mean we can't condemn racism when it clearly rears itself in political campaigns. Even if there are unaddressed underlying causes of that racism, racism still needs to be condemned and pointed out nonetheless. Its not 'painting over the cracks' to point out an actual intolerance and bigotry that exists.

Yeh yeh, spend endless hours talking about the smoke and waving it away and refusing to do anything about the fire, i'm sure that's productive.

Meanwhile, the racist factions are pointing out the actual problems the country has and saying "It's because of minorities."

Why do you think this is a winning strategy of yours, when it's just lost and is losing ground ALL over the western world?

It lost because BAME turnout was lower than white turnout, as usual. If the Remain campaign had focussed on a message of defending immigration actively in the name of racial equality and tolerance, instead of just pushing a negative, fearful message about the albeit terrifying economic consequences of leaving, maybe BAME voters would actually have been enthusiastic enough to turn out and swing the result. Point is, its not a losing strategy to point out racism where it exists, and since you seem to agree that the Leave campaign was tinged in racial prejudice and intolerance, how can you agree that the racist voters got it right when, as you said, they seem to get the symptoms right but they blame the wrong people and group?

[Ostroeuropa]

Yeh yeh, spend endless hours talking about the smoke and waving it away and refusing to do anything about the fire, i'm sure that's productive.

Meanwhile, the racist factions are pointing out the actual problems the country has and saying "It's because of minorities."

Why do you think this is a winning strategy of yours, when it's just lost and is losing ground ALL over the western world?

So you're saying the racist elements of the leave campaign are correct in vilifying all immigrants?

No, i'm saying that if one side is banging on about how we should listen to their economic good sense (When that sense is the same one that has destroyed countless communities and impoverised two generations of British people to feed the coffers of a relentlessly selfish minority of elites) and just going "RACISM! RACISM! RACISM!" while pushing their upper-middle class culture on the country against its will and displaying classist sentiment and contempt for working class culture, and saying shit like "But we need immigrants because british people are too lazy."

They are OBVIOUSLY going to lose to the campaign that says:

"Housing shortages! Lack of infrastructure! School placements! NHS in crisis! Culture eroding! Big business screwing you over! No jobs! It's all because of the EU's elite and bloody immigrants!"

Because only one of those campaigns is even right if you squint, and the other is completely and utterly detatched from the experience of most voters.

[Ifreann]

Someone seriously needs to get Johnson, Farage and Stewart in a room together and make them thrash out a plan.

They'd probably take turns thrashing each other. Which, I'll grant, would be somewhat entertaining, but wouldn't really solve anything.

[Minzerland]

I'd say that racism was a motivator for a tiny minority of leave foters. I think many of them were either swayed by normal, reasonable points, or just wanted to kick the establishment.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/20/britons-on-europe-survey-results-opinium-poll-referendum

Poll on most important issues in EU referendum. 49% of respondents considered immigration the most important issue in the referendum, a number that shoots up to 72% amongst those intending to vote Leave. Those voting Remain, however, were more likely to cite international trade (35%) and the UK economy (34%) as the most important issue.

There, its clearly not a small minority, and Leave voters weren't primarily motivated by the more technocratic arguments about how EU bureaucracy stifles job creation for small businesses and what not. It was about kicking out immigrants.

Obviously, in a campaign to leave the EU, these leavers are dissatisfied with the EU's immigration policy; in other words, they don't like the EU because of how it deals with immigration. Oh, and that's not to say there aren't leavers whom are racist, definitely not. However, it isn't an indication of widespread racism throughout the leave camp.

[Cymrea]

"However footage from BBC Question Time on 9 June – just weeks before the referendum – shows the UKIP leader claiming the available cash was higher than £350 million and saying money should be spent on hospitals and GPs.

“Can we just get to the truth of this - £350 million a week is wrong, it’s higher than that,” he told the programme’s audience.

“FACT – absolute fact – from the official statistics cross-checked from the EU: we pay £55 million a day as a contribution. Some of that is the rebate which doesn’t go but our gross contribution is £55 million a day.”

“We should spend that money here, in our own country, on our own people,” he added.

When subsequently challenged by an audience member who said he advocated an insurance system and did not “believe in the NHS”, he said:

“Do you know what I’d like to do with the £10 billion? I’d like that £10 billion to be spent helping the communities in Britain that [the] Government damaged so badly by opening up the doors to former communist countries. What people need is schools, hospitals, and GPs. That’s what they need.”

[Divitaen]

So you're saying the racist elements of the leave campaign are correct in vilifying all immigrants?

No, i'm saying that if one side is banging on about how we should listen to their economic good sense (When that sense is the same one that has destroyed countless communities and impoverised two generations of British people to feed the coffers of a relentlessly selfish minority of elites) and just going "RACISM! RACISM! RACISM!" while pushing their upper-middle class culture on the country against its will and displaying classist sentiment and contempt for working class culture

They are OBVIOUSLY going to lose to the campaign that says:

"Housing shortages! Lack of infrastructure! School placements! NHS in crisis! Culture eroding! Big business screwing you over! It's all because of the EU's elite and bloody immigrants!"

Because only one of those campaigns is even right if you squint, and the other is completely and utterly detatched from the experience of most voters.

And I agree that the Remain campaign failed to make a positive case for immigration, largely because the pro-Remain Tories were themselves against immigration but were pro-Remain for purely economic reasons. As far as I remember only Sadiq Khan ever came close to arguing that more immigration made Britain a more multicultural and tolerant society. The lack of this positive counter-veiling narrative to Leave's xenophobia and racism obviously makes your side's case appear much less compelling. But its also a sign of how potent racism and xenophobia is in British society and that is indeed contemptible. I don't see how it can be seen as anything less than contemptible. I don't think "racial tolerance" is an "upper-middle class value", it ought to be a universal human value.

[The Archregimancy]

Wow if Corbyn really doesn't resign (I'm shocked he hasn't already) it'll probably spell the end of the Labour party.

The labour party is far too big and old to die from that.

<Looks at the Liberal Party in the second 1910 General Election>

<Looks at the Liberal Party in the 1918 General Election>

<Looks at the Liberal Party in the 1950 General Election>


I happen to think Dejanic is almost certainly exaggerating, and I'm not implying that the situation now is identical to the Liberal Party in the aftermath of the First World War; but, well, I wouldn't assume that our party politics are necessarily as stable as it they sometimes superficially appear to be. Parties with deep political roots and proud records of forming successful governments don't have an automatic right to anyone's electoral allegiance - and when a party is deeply split between two factions whose leaders despise each other, as was the case between the Asquith and Lloyd George wings of the Liberal Party, it certainly doesn't help.

[Divitaen]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/20/britons-on-europe-survey-results-opinium-poll-referendum

Poll on most important issues in EU referendum. 49% of respondents considered immigration the most important issue in the referendum, a number that shoots up to 72% amongst those intending to vote Leave. Those voting Remain, however, were more likely to cite international trade (35%) and the UK economy (34%) as the most important issue.

There, its clearly not a small minority, and Leave voters weren't primarily motivated by the more technocratic arguments about how EU bureaucracy stifles job creation for small businesses and what not. It was about kicking out immigrants.

Obviously, in a campaign to leave the EU, these leavers are dissatisfied with the EU's immigration policy; in other words, they don't like the EU because of how it deals with immigration. Oh, and that's not to say there aren't leavers whom are racist, definitely not. However, it isn't an indication of widespread racism throughout the leave camp.

Well, it dismantles the narrative some Leave voters have been trying to paint that Leave won because of the more technical arguments about EU bureaucracy and lack of parliamentary sovereignty. First and foremost the evidence shows that anti-immigration sentiments was the primary driving force behind Leave voters. And, all the examples I listed earlier of racist comments made by Farage, xenophobic remarks made by Johnson and all the racist posters, political cartoons and race-baiting about Turkey employed by Vote Leave and Leave.eu demonstrate an undertone of racism and xenophobic hatred directed at Bulgarians, Romanians and Muslim refugees throughout the whole campaign. The Leave campaign only won because they successfully exploited and took advantage of vile, vitriolic sentiments in the British electorate.

[Ostroeuropa]

No, i'm saying that if one side is banging on about how we should listen to their economic good sense (When that sense is the same one that has destroyed countless communities and impoverised two generations of British people to feed the coffers of a relentlessly selfish minority of elites) and just going "RACISM! RACISM! RACISM!" while pushing their upper-middle class culture on the country against its will and displaying classist sentiment and contempt for working class culture

They are OBVIOUSLY going to lose to the campaign that says:

"Housing shortages! Lack of infrastructure! School placements! NHS in crisis! Culture eroding! Big business screwing you over! It's all because of the EU's elite and bloody immigrants!"

Because only one of those campaigns is even right if you squint, and the other is completely and utterly detatched from the experience of most voters.

And I agree that the Remain campaign failed to make a positive case for immigration, largely because the pro-Remain Tories were themselves against immigration but were pro-Remain for purely economic reasons. As far as I remember only Sadiq Khan ever came close to arguing that more immigration made Britain a more multicultural and tolerant society. The lack of this positive counter-veiling narrative to Leave's xenophobia and racism obviously makes your side's case appear much less compelling. But its also a sign of how potent racism and xenophobia is in British society and that is indeed contemptible. I don't see how it can be seen as anything less than contemptible. I don't think "racial tolerance" is an "upper-middle class value", it ought to be a universal human value.

Racial tolerance /=/ a cultural vacuum where you don't assert the native culture is a positive thing and exists on its own, and assert only minorities have cultures while we're just a void staring blankly into the distance surrounded by minorities who have cultures, and that is our defining role.

I suspect part of the reason they do this is they are, once again, completely detatched from most of the country and attempting to articulate cultural connections to them would reveal just how detatched they are.

A positive case for immigration would have failed. The "MULTICULTURAL SOCIETY!" shit has failed consistently to draw support, because of the problems caused by ghettoization. So again, unless focus is given to the economic failures of the elite (Which they refuse to do), it's pointless.
Instead, they just scream that the voters are stupid and racist rather than confront their own incompetence and dangerous ideology.

[Divitaen]

And I agree that the Remain campaign failed to make a positive case for immigration, largely because the pro-Remain Tories were themselves against immigration but were pro-Remain for purely economic reasons. As far as I remember only Sadiq Khan ever came close to arguing that more immigration made Britain a more multicultural and tolerant society. The lack of this positive counter-veiling narrative to Leave's xenophobia and racism obviously makes your side's case appear much less compelling. But its also a sign of how potent racism and xenophobia is in British society and that is indeed contemptible. I don't see how it can be seen as anything less than contemptible. I don't think "racial tolerance" is an "upper-middle class value", it ought to be a universal human value.

Racial tolerance /=/ a cultural vacuum where you don't assert the native culture is a positive thing and exists on its own, and assert only minorities have cultures while we're just a void staring blankly into the distance surrounded by minorities who have cultures, and that is our defining role.

I suspect part of the reason they do this is they are, once again, completely detatched from most of the country and attempting to articulate cultural connections to them would reveal just how detatched they are.

Or racial tolerance could be simply a matter of accepting immigrants as human beings equal in worth to yourself, who shouldn't be demonised as some homogenous blob that wants to steal your jobs, lower your wages, kill your children and mooch off welfare?

[Ifreann]

"However footage from BBC Question Time on 9 June – just weeks before the referendum – shows the UKIP leader claiming the available cash was higher than £350 million and saying money should be spent on hospitals and GPs.

“Can we just get to the truth of this - £350 million a week is wrong, it’s higher than that,” he told the programme’s audience.

“FACT – absolute fact – from the official statistics cross-checked from the EU: we pay £55 million a day as a contribution. Some of that is the rebate which doesn’t go but our gross contribution is £55 million a day.”

“We should spend that money here, in our own country, on our own people,” he added.

What was that bit of Kipling from that one Grauniad article? "I could not dig, I dared not rob, and so I lied to please the mob"?

[Ostroeuropa]

Racial tolerance /=/ a cultural vacuum where you don't assert the native culture is a positive thing and exists on its own, and assert only minorities have cultures while we're just a void staring blankly into the distance surrounded by minorities who have cultures, and that is our defining role.

I suspect part of the reason they do this is they are, once again, completely detatched from most of the country and attempting to articulate cultural connections to them would reveal just how detatched they are.

Or racial tolerance could be simply a matter of accepting immigrants as human beings equal in worth to yourself, who shouldn't be demonised as some homogenous blob that wants to steal your jobs, lower your wages, kill your children and mooch off welfare?

From the edit:

A positive case for immigration would have failed. The "MULTICULTURAL SOCIETY!" shit has failed consistently to draw support, because of the problems caused by ghettoization. So again, unless focus is given to the economic failures of the elite (Which they refuse to do), it's pointless.
Instead, they just scream that the voters are stupid and racist rather than confront their own incompetence and dangerous ideology fueling extreme tension.

Multiculturalism HASN'T worked, and that is, once again, due to neoliberal economic policies.
Until the elite can confront their own failures, any of their attempts to discuss racism fall on death ears, and only empower racist factions in society who ARE confronting those failures.

This is a growing phenomena across the US and Europe.

[The Archregimancy]

Separately, the same polling exercise shows that while Boris Johnson is currently the favoured candidate among Conservative Party voters, he would currently lose to Theresa May in a head to head contest between the two if Johnson and May were to be the two candidates selected by the Parliamentary Party for the subsequent vote by the membership.


https://www.politicshome.com/news/europ ... rexit-poll

Ahh interesting, so in a second ballot it is theoretically possible for Theresa May to triumph as the next British PM, which will of course through the whole UK leave process into even more ambiguity.

Ah, no - I think you misunderstand the Conservative Party leadership process.

It's not an open vote between all of the candidates with multiple ballots if no one gets 50%, which - with apologies if I've misread you - you seem to think is the case.

What happens is that the Parliamentary Party first holds a separate and wholly internal vote to select just two individuals from the candidates who put their name forward.

Those two candidates are then put to a vote by the entire party membership.

According to the Survation poll (and freely conceding that opinion polling isn't having its best moment right now), if those two candidates were to be Johnson and May, May would win with 53% of the vote.

That would then put a pro-Remain candidate in charge of the Conservative Party.

This may of course not happen. It's just one opinion poll, we're in early days of the process, and the Parliamentary Conservative Party may not choose Johnson and May as the finalists anyway.

But it's a possibility.

[Divitaen]

Ahh interesting, so in a second ballot it is theoretically possible for Theresa May to triumph as the next British PM, which will of course through the whole UK leave process into even more ambiguity.

Ah, no - I think you misunderstand the Conservative Party leadership process.

It's not an open vote between all of the candidates with multiple ballots if no one gets 50%, which - with apologies if I've misread you - you seem to think is the case.

What happens is that the Parliamentary Party first holds a separate and wholly internal vote to select just two individuals from the candidates who put their name forward.

Those two candidates are then put to a vote by the entire party membership.

According to the Survation poll (and freely conceding that opinion polling isn't having its best moment right now), if those two candidates were to be Johnson and May, May would win with 53% of the vote.

That would then put a pro-Remain candidate in charge of the Conservative Party.

This may of course not happen. It's just one opinion poll, we're in early days of the process, and the Parliamentary Conservative Party may not choose Johnson and May as the finalists anyway.

But it's a possibility.

Ahh ok now I get it, always get confused between who exactly votes to choose the two head-to-head candidates. And yes if that's the case that May could be the PM and beat Johnson and the outcome of that would be rather interesting and tumultous. After all the whole point of Cameron resigning is that a Remain politician leading the UK's leave process makes very little sense.

[Divitaen]

Or racial tolerance could be simply a matter of accepting immigrants as human beings equal in worth to yourself, who shouldn't be demonised as some homogenous blob that wants to steal your jobs, lower your wages, kill your children and mooch off welfare?

From the edit:

A positive case for immigration would have failed. The "MULTICULTURAL SOCIETY!" shit has failed consistently to draw support, because of the problems caused by ghettoization. So again, unless focus is given to the economic failures of the elite (Which they refuse to do), it's pointless.
Instead, they just scream that the voters are stupid and racist rather than confront their own incompetence and dangerous ideology fueling extreme tension.

Multiculturalism HASN'T worked, and that is, once again, due to neoliberal economic policies.
Until the elite can confront their own failures, any of their attempts to discuss racism fall on death ears, and only empower racist factions in society who ARE confronting those failures.

This is a growing phenomena across the US and Europe.

Multiculturalism is really the only choice in a society that already has different immigrant communities. Short of kicking out everyone non-white and non-Christian, or somehow forcing immigrants to adopt a culture and religion and language they do not believe in or are not accustomed to, multiculturalism is really the only option. When we talk about multiculturalism being a "failure" we rarely ever talk about how cultural homogeneity is simply practically impossible and hardly even an option anymore for a modern country. We have to make do with the reality of multiculturalism and find a way to bridge cultural gaps and divides between communities and we can start that by changing bigoted attitudes and combating prejudice and obstacles to racial equality and acceptance.

[Ostroeuropa]

From the edit:

A positive case for immigration would have failed. The "MULTICULTURAL SOCIETY!" shit has failed consistently to draw support, because of the problems caused by ghettoization. So again, unless focus is given to the economic failures of the elite (Which they refuse to do), it's pointless.
Instead, they just scream that the voters are stupid and racist rather than confront their own incompetence and dangerous ideology fueling extreme tension.

Multiculturalism HASN'T worked, and that is, once again, due to neoliberal economic policies.
Until the elite can confront their own failures, any of their attempts to discuss racism fall on death ears, and only empower racist factions in society who ARE confronting those failures.

This is a growing phenomena across the US and Europe.

Multiculturalism is really the only choice in a society that already has different immigrant communities. Short of kicking out everyone non-white and non-Christian, or somehow forcing immigrants to adopt a culture and religion and language they do not believe in or are not accustomed to, multiculturalism is really the only option. When we talk about multiculturalism being a "failure" we rarely ever talk about how cultural homogeneity is simply practically impossible and hardly even an option anymore for a modern country. We have to make do with the reality of multiculturalism and find a way to bridge cultural gaps and divides between communities and we can start that by changing bigoted attitudes and combating prejudice and obstacles to racial equality and acceptance.

None of which can be done...
due to ghettoization.

[Kelinfort]

Or racial tolerance could be simply a matter of accepting immigrants as human beings equal in worth to yourself, who shouldn't be demonised as some homogenous blob that wants to steal your jobs, lower your wages, kill your children and mooch off welfare?

From the edit:

A positive case for immigration would have failed. The "MULTICULTURAL SOCIETY!" shit has failed consistently to draw support, because of the problems caused by ghettoization. So again, unless focus is given to the economic failures of the elite (Which they refuse to do), it's pointless.
Instead, they just scream that the voters are stupid and racist rather than confront their own incompetence and dangerous ideology fueling extreme tension.

Multiculturalism HASN'T worked, and that is, once again, due to neoliberal economic policies.
Until the elite can confront their own failures, any of their attempts to discuss racism fall on death ears, and only empower racist factions in society who ARE confronting those failures.

This is a growing phenomena across the US and Europe.

I have to say, besides keeping some cultural traditions and holidays, along with unfortunate ghettoization, it appears most of these immigrants have assimilated into civil society

[Divitaen]

Multiculturalism is really the only choice in a society that already has different immigrant communities. Short of kicking out everyone non-white and non-Christian, or somehow forcing immigrants to adopt a culture and religion and language they do not believe in or are not accustomed to, multiculturalism is really the only option. When we talk about multiculturalism being a "failure" we rarely ever talk about how cultural homogeneity is simply practically impossible and hardly even an option anymore for a modern country. We have to make do with the reality of multiculturalism and find a way to bridge cultural gaps and divides between communities and we can start that by changing bigoted attitudes and combating prejudice and obstacles to racial equality and acceptance.

None of which can be done...
due to ghettoization.

Which often only happens because of racial discrimination in private housing, the phenomenon of "white flight" from neighbourhoods with immigrant minorities, and disproportionate levels of poverty amongst racial minorities. So, again, in comes down to combating racist attitudes and prejudices which contribute to ghettoization in the first place.

[The Archregimancy]

"However footage from BBC Question Time on 9 June – just weeks before the referendum – shows the UKIP leader claiming the available cash was higher than £350 million and saying money should be spent on hospitals and GPs.

“Can we just get to the truth of this - £350 million a week is wrong, it’s higher than that,” he told the programme’s audience.

“FACT – absolute fact – from the official statistics cross-checked from the EU: we pay £55 million a day as a contribution. Some of that is the rebate which doesn’t go but our gross contribution is £55 million a day.”

“We should spend that money here, in our own country, on our own people,” he added.

When subsequently challenged by an audience member who said he advocated an insurance system and did not “believe in the NHS”, he said:

“Do you know what I’d like to do with the £10 billion? I’d like that £10 billion to be spent helping the communities in Britain that [the] Government damaged so badly by opening up the doors to former communist countries. What people need is schools, hospitals, and GPs. That’s what they need.”

I don't doubt for a second that Farage's campaign was often deeply mendacious and deliberately misleading. I also suspect - though have no way of proving - that Farage was allowed to run a wholly separate campaign group to allow him to campaign on issues (see, inter alia, the infamous immigration poster) that the official leave campaign wanted to be able to officially disavow.

But that doesn't change that the specific '£350 million for the NHS' claim was made by Vote Leave, not by Farage's Leave EU. Even in the above quote Farage restricts himself to generalities and vague statements that the higher sums he argues would be available can go to 'schools, hospitals, and GPs' - which includes the NHS, yes, but isn't limited to the NHS; and he avoids giving a specific figure for each category.

So excoriate Farage for his campaign lies by all means; I'm hardly inclined to object. But on the specific claim of '£350 million for the NHS', the direct fault lies with the official campaign backed by Gove and Johnson, not Farage's group; which arguably makes that particular claim even worse.

[Ostroeuropa]

None of which can be done...
due to ghettoization.

Which often only happens because of racial discrimination in private housing, the phenomenon of "white flight" from neighbourhoods with immigrant minorities, and disproportionate levels of poverty amongst racial minorities. So, again, in comes down to combating racist attitudes and prejudices which contribute to ghettoization in the first place.

The lack of social mobility the minorities have isn't disproportionate is the thing, and this is what the left has continuously failed to understand.
Their focus on race policies is driving racism because the white working class looks at you helping minorities and pursuing policies to import more of them, while they themselves languish in poverty without social mobility.
Meanwhile, the ghettos continue anyway, and cultural polarization happens.

From the edit:

A positive case for immigration would have failed. The "MULTICULTURAL SOCIETY!" shit has failed consistently to draw support, because of the problems caused by ghettoization. So again, unless focus is given to the economic failures of the elite (Which they refuse to do), it's pointless.
Instead, they just scream that the voters are stupid and racist rather than confront their own incompetence and dangerous ideology fueling extreme tension.

Multiculturalism HASN'T worked, and that is, once again, due to neoliberal economic policies.
Until the elite can confront their own failures, any of their attempts to discuss racism fall on death ears, and only empower racist factions in society who ARE confronting those failures.

This is a growing phenomena across the US and Europe.

I have to say, besides keeping some cultural traditions and holidays, along with unfortunate ghettoization, it appears most of these immigrants have assimilated into civil society

It seems that way to you because if you join the middle or upper classes and get a position where you can be a part of the image we present to the world and such, you're often more bourgeoisie than actually cultured anyway. The middle class of any nation often have more in common with eachother than the working classes of their own nation.

If you were to get down on the street level and compare the ghettos of white workers versus minority migrants and their descendents, there is a vast gulf between them culturally, and it often spills over into violence or high tensions like rotherham. (Which has now basically become a quiet warzone where hate crime is rampant.)
This isn't explored partially because our media and our elites don't want to acknowledge the failure of their policy, and just say everyone who brings it up is a racist, same as they refuse to engage with the failure of their economic policies.

There is a reason the tabloids resonate with so much of the public.

[HMS Vanguard]

But that doesn't change that the specific '£350 million for the NHS' claim was made by Vote Leave, not by Farage's Leave EU. Even in the above quote Farage restricts himself to generalities and vague statements that the higher sums he argues would be available can go to 'schools, hospitals, and GPs' - which includes the NHS, yes, but isn't limited to the NHS; and he avoids giving a specific figure for each category.

Even the original bus claim wasn't technically incorrect, just kind of misleading. There was worse bullshit from Remain (and indeed worse from other parts of Leave, that just got less traction for whatever reason).

[Divitaen]

Which often only happens because of racial discrimination in private housing, the phenomenon of "white flight" from neighbourhoods with immigrant minorities, and disproportionate levels of poverty amongst racial minorities. So, again, in comes down to combating racist attitudes and prejudices which contribute to ghettoization in the first place.

The lack of social mobility the minorities have isn't disproportionate is the thing, and this is what the left has continuously failed to understand.
Their focus on race policies is driving racism because the white working class looks at you helping minorities and pursuing policies to import more of them, while they themselves languish in poverty without social mobility.
Meanwhile, the ghettos continue anyway, and cultural polarization happens.

Yes, but these non-white immigrants have to deal with racist attitudes in universities and when applying for employment and housing, whereas low-income whites don't have to deal with the same racial discrimination. Of course the socio-economic hurdles need to be brought down, but race obviously makes a difference too. I'm not going to apologise for advocating for policies based on race when racial privilege actually exists in reality.

[Ostroeuropa]

The lack of social mobility the minorities have isn't disproportionate is the thing, and this is what the left has continuously failed to understand.
Their focus on race policies is driving racism because the white working class looks at you helping minorities and pursuing policies to import more of them, while they themselves languish in poverty without social mobility.
Meanwhile, the ghettos continue anyway, and cultural polarization happens.

Yes, but these non-white immigrants have to deal with racist attitudes in universities and when applying for employment and housing, whereas low-income whites don't have to deal with the same racial discrimination. Of course the socio-economic hurdles need to be brought down, but race obviously makes a difference too. I'm not going to apologise for advocating for policies based on race when racial privilege actually exists in reality.

To do so when not presenting solutions to neoliberal economics is fueling the problem and an absurdly bad idea. We're seeing the evidence of that unfold across the world, right now.

[Divitaen]

But that doesn't change that the specific '£350 million for the NHS' claim was made by Vote Leave, not by Farage's Leave EU. Even in the above quote Farage restricts himself to generalities and vague statements that the higher sums he argues would be available can go to 'schools, hospitals, and GPs' - which includes the NHS, yes, but isn't limited to the NHS; and he avoids giving a specific figure for each category.

Even the original bus claim wasn't technically incorrect, just kind of misleading. There was worse bullshit from Remain (and indeed worse from other parts of Leave, that just got less traction for whatever reason).

Kind of misleading? That's quite an understatement don't you think? I mean how can you talk about how much money the UK can 'recover' from the EU without accounting for EU payments and rebates to the UK? Doesn't really make sense when you're talking about re-channeling that money elsewhere to purposefully leave out the rebates and EU payments.

Also, what kind of Remain lies are you talking about? Most campaigners like Osborne simply repeated what all the major economic institutions and research groups were saying in published reports anyway.

[HMS Vanguard]

The lack of social mobility the minorities have isn't disproportionate is the thing, and this is what the left has continuously failed to understand.
Their focus on race policies is driving racism because the white working class looks at you helping minorities and pursuing policies to import more of them, while they themselves languish in poverty without social mobility.
Meanwhile, the ghettos continue anyway, and cultural polarization happens.

Yes, but these non-white immigrants have to deal with racist attitudes in universities and when applying for employment and housing, whereas low-income whites don't have to deal with the same racial discrimination. Of course the socio-economic hurdles need to be brought down, but race obviously makes a difference too. I'm not going to apologise for advocating for policies based on race when racial privilege actually exists in reality.

What does non-white immigration have to do with the EU?

The EU is the main source of white immigration. It is barely relevant to non-white immigration.