UK Referendum Thread [Moderator Sanctioned]

[Ostroeuropa]

Descriptions of chaos are wildly exaggerated.

It does not make sense for a pro-Remain PM to negotiate Leave. Cameron's departure is sensible.

Johnson has to become Prime Minister.

The terms of exit will not become clear until Article 50 is invoked and negotiations begin. The terms are likely to represent relatively little practical change; they will frustrate Leave supporters and reassure Remain supporters, but that is the right way around given the nearness of the result.

Parliament must endorse this deal.

I think chaos is a very good description of what is happening now. A rather contentious Tory leadership election is going to take part in October amidst the ambiguity and uncertainty of Brexit, and the whole of Europe will be waiting for how the new PM handles Brexit. Labour is undergoing an internal coup that was successfully crushed, and Nicola Sturgeon is playing political chess waiting for Westminster's next move to decide whether to call for a second Scottish independence referendum which, if it succeeds, may inspire independence for Northern Ireland and so on. Political chaos is a very good description of this mix of ambiguity, uncertainty, tension and possibilities.

I am absolutely fucking stunned that the Labour and Tory pro-remain factions can't unite behind a compromise candidate and form a national government. It shows that their pro-remain stances are no more genuine than boris' leave one was, it's just a political talking point.

I'm stunned nobody has come out to propose what I said.

Unite behind a figurehead outsider, and do the following:
Pass a bill to cut EU migration to 10,000 a year.
Give devo-max to Scotland.
Proportional representation.
Say No, we're not leaving the EU. It's obvious this vote was against the status quo establishment as well as immigration levels, which we cut.
Then call a fucking election.

(Not even exactly that. Just the sentiment and tone behind it.)

Instead, they are all clinging to power and desperate to keep their gravy train going, or engaging in all out total fucking war and refusal to compromise with anybody.

None of them give a shit about the country. Just forcing their views on everyone and keeping in power, while sidelining everyone who disagrees with them, despite the OBVIOUS PROBLEMS THIS HAS CAUSED.
Fuck. I'm going to go play video games.

[HMS Vanguard]

Descriptions of chaos are wildly exaggerated.

It does not make sense for a pro-Remain PM to negotiate Leave. Cameron's departure is sensible.

Johnson has to become Prime Minister.

The terms of exit will not become clear until Article 50 is invoked and negotiations begin. The terms are likely to represent relatively little practical change; they will frustrate Leave supporters and reassure Remain supporters, but that is the right way around given the nearness of the result.

Parliament must endorse this deal.

I think chaos is a very good description of what is happening now. A rather contentious Tory leadership election is going to take part in October amidst the ambiguity and uncertainty of Brexit, and the whole of Europe will be waiting for how the new PM handles Brexit.

Which is correct. A withdrawal should not be negotiated by the leader of the anti-withdrawal campaign. If another Remainer wins the Tory leadership election, perhaps we will have chaos.

Labour is undergoing an internal coup that was successfully crushed,

So status quo.

and Nicola Sturgeon is playing political chess waiting for Westminster's next move to decide whether to call for a second Scottish independence referendum

As always.

which, if it succeeds, may inspire independence for Northern Ireland and so on. Political chaos is a very good description of this mix of ambiguity, uncertainty, tension and possibilities.

Northern Ireland is not going to become independent nor is it going to vote for membership of the Republic. The border situation will be awkward, but I doubt anyone is going to play chicken reigniting a guerilla war. Ireland will be handled separately.

[Dumb Ideologies]

I think chaos is a very good description of what is happening now. A rather contentious Tory leadership election is going to take part in October amidst the ambiguity and uncertainty of Brexit, and the whole of Europe will be waiting for how the new PM handles Brexit. Labour is undergoing an internal coup that was successfully crushed, and Nicola Sturgeon is playing political chess waiting for Westminster's next move to decide whether to call for a second Scottish independence referendum which, if it succeeds, may inspire independence for Northern Ireland and so on. Political chaos is a very good description of this mix of ambiguity, uncertainty, tension and possibilities.

I am absolutely fucking stunned that the Labour and Tory pro-remain factions can't unite behind a compromise candidate and form a national government. It shows that their pro-remain stances are no more genuine than boris' leave one was, it's just a political talking point.

I'm stunned nobody has come out to propose what I said.

Unite behind a figurehead outsider, and do the following:
Pass a bill to cut EU migration to 10,000 a year.
Give devo-max to Scotland.
Proportional representation.
Say No, we're not leaving the EU. It's obvious this vote was against the status quo establishment as well as immigration levels, which we cut.
Then call a fucking election.

Instead, they are all clinging to power and desperate to keep their gravy train going, or engaging in all out total fucking war and refusal to compromise with anybody.

None of them give a shit about the country. Just forcing their views on everyone and keeping in power, while sidelining everyone who disagrees with them, despite the OBVIOUS PROBLEMS THIS HAS CAUSED.
Fuck. I'm going to go play video games.

havent they been banned yet?

[HMS Vanguard]

I am absolutely fucking stunned that the Labour and Tory pro-remain factions can't unite behind a compromise candidate and form a national government.

Because a government no one elected whose main purpose is to overturn the result of a national referendum would look very much like a coup d'etat.

Pass a bill to cut EU migration to 10,000 a year.

Say No, we're not leaving the EU.

Pick one.

Then call a fucking election.

Having rearranged British politics into a Brexit Party and a Remain Party, what makes you think the Remain Party would win? There certainly aren't enough seats for a Remain Party to give jobs to 2/3 of the Labour and 1/3 of the Tory MPs. It probably would win seats in the double digits in England and Wales and nothing in Scotland.

[Divitaen]

I think chaos is a very good description of what is happening now. A rather contentious Tory leadership election is going to take part in October amidst the ambiguity and uncertainty of Brexit, and the whole of Europe will be waiting for how the new PM handles Brexit. Labour is undergoing an internal coup that was successfully crushed, and Nicola Sturgeon is playing political chess waiting for Westminster's next move to decide whether to call for a second Scottish independence referendum which, if it succeeds, may inspire independence for Northern Ireland and so on. Political chaos is a very good description of this mix of ambiguity, uncertainty, tension and possibilities.

I am absolutely fucking stunned that the Labour and Tory pro-remain factions can't unite behind a compromise candidate and form a national government. It shows that their pro-remain stances are no more genuine than boris' leave one was, it's just a political talking point.

I'm stunned nobody has come out to propose what I said.

Unite behind a figurehead outsider, and do the following:
Pass a bill to cut EU migration to 10,000 a year.
Give devo-max to Scotland.
Proportional representation.
Say No, we're not leaving the EU. It's obvious this vote was against the status quo establishment as well as immigration levels, which we cut.
Then call a fucking election.

(Not even exactly that. Just the sentiment and tone behind it.)

Instead, they are all clinging to power and desperate to keep their gravy train going, or engaging in all out total fucking war and refusal to compromise with anybody.

None of them give a shit about the country. Just forcing their views on everyone and keeping in power, while sidelining everyone who disagrees with them, despite the OBVIOUS PROBLEMS THIS HAS CAUSED.
Fuck. I'm going to go play video games.

Even though its possible, unfortunately Labour and establishment Tories agree on nothing else besides maybe keeping the UK in the EU, beyond that on economic policy they are worlds apart. Not to mention the fact that overturning the EU referendum result would cause massive outrage and anger against Westminster. Even if you frame it as a "compromise" angry anti-establishment voters are going to frame it, convincingly, as an abrogation of the people's will and it will only worsen the political chaos.

[CoraSpia]

I think chaos is a very good description of what is happening now. A rather contentious Tory leadership election is going to take part in October amidst the ambiguity and uncertainty of Brexit, and the whole of Europe will be waiting for how the new PM handles Brexit. Labour is undergoing an internal coup that was successfully crushed, and Nicola Sturgeon is playing political chess waiting for Westminster's next move to decide whether to call for a second Scottish independence referendum which, if it succeeds, may inspire independence for Northern Ireland and so on. Political chaos is a very good description of this mix of ambiguity, uncertainty, tension and possibilities.

I am absolutely fucking stunned that the Labour and Tory pro-remain factions can't unite behind a compromise candidate and form a national government. It shows that their pro-remain stances are no more genuine than boris' leave one was, it's just a political talking point.

I'm stunned nobody has come out to propose what I said.

Unite behind a figurehead outsider, and do the following:
Pass a bill to cut EU migration to 10,000 a year.
Give devo-max to Scotland.
Proportional representation.
Say No, we're not leaving the EU. It's obvious this vote was against the status quo establishment as well as immigration levels, which we cut.
Then call a fucking election.

(Not even exactly that. Just the sentiment and tone behind it.)

Instead, they are all clinging to power and desperate to keep their gravy train going, or engaging in all out total fucking war and refusal to compromise with anybody.

None of them give a shit about the country. Just forcing their views on everyone and keeping in power, while sidelining everyone who disagrees with them, despite the OBVIOUS PROBLEMS THIS HAS CAUSED.
Fuck. I'm going to go play video games.

Of course they are. When you've got politicians with so low wages compared to other countries in the world, you're only going to get the people who are interested in power signing up to do it.

[Ostroeuropa]

I am absolutely fucking stunned that the Labour and Tory pro-remain factions can't unite behind a compromise candidate and form a national government.

Because a government no one elected whose main purpose is to overturn the result of a national referendum would look very much like a coup d'etat.

Pass a bill to cut EU migration to 10,000 a year.

Say No, we're not leaving the EU.

Pick one.

Then call a fucking election.

Having rearranged British politics into a Brexit Party and a Remain Party, what makes you think the Remain Party would win? There certainly aren't enough seats for a Remain Party to give jobs to 2/3 of the Labour and 1/3 of the Tory MPs. It probably would win seats in the double digits in England and Wales and nothing in Scotland.

Sorry, I meant outside the EU migration.

[Ostroeuropa]

I am absolutely fucking stunned that the Labour and Tory pro-remain factions can't unite behind a compromise candidate and form a national government. It shows that their pro-remain stances are no more genuine than boris' leave one was, it's just a political talking point.

I'm stunned nobody has come out to propose what I said.

Unite behind a figurehead outsider, and do the following:
Pass a bill to cut EU migration to 10,000 a year.
Give devo-max to Scotland.
Proportional representation.
Say No, we're not leaving the EU. It's obvious this vote was against the status quo establishment as well as immigration levels, which we cut.
Then call a fucking election.

(Not even exactly that. Just the sentiment and tone behind it.)

Instead, they are all clinging to power and desperate to keep their gravy train going, or engaging in all out total fucking war and refusal to compromise with anybody.

None of them give a shit about the country. Just forcing their views on everyone and keeping in power, while sidelining everyone who disagrees with them, despite the OBVIOUS PROBLEMS THIS HAS CAUSED.
Fuck. I'm going to go play video games.

Even though its possible, unfortunately Labour and establishment Tories agree on nothing else besides maybe keeping the UK in the EU, beyond that on economic policy they are worlds apart. Not to mention the fact that overturning the EU referendum result would cause massive outrage and anger against Westminster. Even if you frame it as a "compromise" angry anti-establishment voters are going to frame it, convincingly, as an abrogation of the people's will and it will only worsen the political chaos.

That's why you do proportional representation.
It is becoming increasingly clear that the two party system is dysfunctional and cannot properly govern or represent the views of the country.

[CoraSpia]

I am absolutely fucking stunned that the Labour and Tory pro-remain factions can't unite behind a compromise candidate and form a national government.

Because a government no one elected whose main purpose is to overturn the result of a national referendum would look very much like a coup d'etat.

Pass a bill to cut EU migration to 10,000 a year.

Say No, we're not leaving the EU.

Pick one.

Then call a fucking election.

Having rearranged British politics into a Brexit Party and a Remain Party, what makes you think the Remain Party would win? There certainly aren't enough seats for a Remain Party to give jobs to 2/3 of the Labour and 1/3 of the Tory MPs. It probably would win seats in the double digits in England and Wales and nothing in Scotland.

This 'Remain party' would be strong in London: in the labour heartlands and the shires, on the other hand, it would be crushed.

[Divitaen]

I think chaos is a very good description of what is happening now. A rather contentious Tory leadership election is going to take part in October amidst the ambiguity and uncertainty of Brexit, and the whole of Europe will be waiting for how the new PM handles Brexit.

Which is correct. A withdrawal should not be negotiated by the leader of the anti-withdrawal campaign. If another Remainer wins the Tory leadership election, perhaps we will have chaos.

Labour is undergoing an internal coup that was successfully crushed,

So status quo.

and Nicola Sturgeon is playing political chess waiting for Westminster's next move to decide whether to call for a second Scottish independence referendum

As always.

which, if it succeeds, may inspire independence for Northern Ireland and so on. Political chaos is a very good description of this mix of ambiguity, uncertainty, tension and possibilities.

Northern Ireland is not going to become independent nor is it going to vote for membership of the Republic. The border situation will be awkward, but I doubt anyone is going to play chicken reigniting a guerilla war. Ireland will be handled separately.

Isn't it theoretically possible for Theresa May to win the Tory leadership election? Like you and I both said its not likely given that most Tory voters clearly voted for Leave, mathematically, so they are likely to vote for Johnson but given that polls show he is only at 41% now its theoretically possible that on the second ballot Theresa May could actually overtake Johnson and become PM, in which case as you said the chaos would actually worsen with a Remain PM trying to extricate the UK from the EU. I have no idea how that would work out at all. As for the Scottish referendum, most people seem to think it is very likely so that is bound to complicate things. I don't even know if Johnson or May would grant such a referendum and honestly I'm clueless as to whether Westminster can just turn down the referendum or refuse to let Scotland hold one, or if they would do such a thing if requested.

[CoraSpia]

Even though its possible, unfortunately Labour and establishment Tories agree on nothing else besides maybe keeping the UK in the EU, beyond that on economic policy they are worlds apart. Not to mention the fact that overturning the EU referendum result would cause massive outrage and anger against Westminster. Even if you frame it as a "compromise" angry anti-establishment voters are going to frame it, convincingly, as an abrogation of the people's will and it will only worsen the political chaos.

That's why you do proportional representation.
It is becoming increasingly clear that the two party system is dysfunctional and cannot properly govern or represent the views of the country.

That would be nice, unfortunately the two big parties have all the power and they don't like it.

[Ostroeuropa]

That's why you do proportional representation.
It is becoming increasingly clear that the two party system is dysfunctional and cannot properly govern or represent the views of the country.

That would be nice, unfortunately the two big parties have all the power and they don't like it.

That's why we're at an impasse.
They've realized (Or believe) that we can't leave the EU without it being a clusterfuck that destroys the country, and they can't just ignore it without an even bigger clusterfuck that might actually see violence. They HAVE to concede power to the rest of the country rather than monopolizing it to a neoliberal elite.
The only way out is for them to release their grip on power, and they REFUSE to do it. So we're just going to sit here, in chaos.

The EU situation is such that no compromise is acceptable to all (Or most) of the public, except remaining in the EU with SUBSTANTIAL reforms to our political system.

Leaving and remaining in the EEA pisses EVERYBODY off.
Leaving entirely pisses the remainers off.
Remaining and doing nothing pisses the leavers off.

It's only by releasing the grip on power, and reforming outside the EU migration down to the 10,000 levels immediately, that everyone will be potentially satisfied a little bit.
Leavers can they vote proportionally for brexit parties, etc.

[Divitaen]

That would be nice, unfortunately the two big parties have all the power and they don't like it.

That's why we're at an impasse.
They've realized that we can't leave the EU without it being a clusterfuck that destroys the country, and they can't just ignore it without an even bigger clusterfuck that might actually see violence.
The only way out is for them to release their grip on power, and they REFUSE to do it. So we're just going to sit here, in chaos.

Or at least until the Tory leadership election, which should by right happen in October if I'm not wrong. Then, presumably, Johnson wins (unless somehow May wins on the second ballot) and then, presumably, he takes responsibility for this whole mess he helped to create and steers UK's Article 50 exit. But of course whether he will willingly take responsibility for all the ensuing economic chaos and catastrophe that happens afterwards is also a question of political courage or cowardice. I suspect under Johnson it'll end up being a Tory-UKIP coalition anyway extricating the UK from the EU.

[Kelinfort]

Hey guys, the markets stabilized! Look at the FTSE, it's only down 2% today.

[Ifreann]

So eeeeeeeenyway, I assume this hasn't been posted?

The developments of the past 36 hours or so are not giving me confidence that the Brexit will actually happen. Really seems that Leave painted themselves into a corner.

Building off the comment off the Guardian that has been discussed here already—the lack of endgame from Leave has been seriously hampering its ability to control the narrative and we're already four days into this. They never really decided on whether this was about sending a message or actually leaving and now it's really coming back to bite them.

"We must reach out, we must heal, we must build bridges - because it is clear that some have feelings of dismay, and of loss, and confusion."

And that's just the Leave voters who thought this would ban Muslims, fund the NHS, and send England to the Euro final.

---

Seems to me like Leave painted the whole Britain into a corner. And seems to me like a large part of the EU top-jobs (Juncker and Schulz to begin with) plus the executive branches of the founders (B-D-F-I-L-NL) are pissed enough at the attitude of the various British governments towards the EU in the last 40 years - this referendum being nothing but the icing on a huge cake of disappointment - that Johnson may pledge all the cooperation he wants, but he's not going to receive any from the EU - neither are England and Wales (Scotland, now, that's a different story).

Scotland will be liberated using EU arms and weapons under the Common Security and Defense Policy from the oppressive anglowelshmen.

Millions of FN FALs will be air-dropped on Scotland, and then they'll sort themselves out.

---

Can you just imagine the reaction on here if Donald Trump were to somehow win the 2016 election? It would just go nuclear, I tell you. I would relish it almost as much as how Brexit happened.

This is the first chink in the EU's armor, it can be toppled and overthrown perhaps as easily as the north Vietnamese tank smashed the gate of the US embassy in Saigon, the domino effect just needs to be set into motion. Everything is there to kick the Muslim immigrants out of Europe if only certain events happen as I want them to.

Britain is metaphorically(for now) burning it self to the ground and you think this will encourage other nations to leave the EU?

[Ostroeuropa]

That's why we're at an impasse.
They've realized that we can't leave the EU without it being a clusterfuck that destroys the country, and they can't just ignore it without an even bigger clusterfuck that might actually see violence.
The only way out is for them to release their grip on power, and they REFUSE to do it. So we're just going to sit here, in chaos.

Or at least until the Tory leadership election, which should by right happen in October if I'm not wrong. Then, presumably, Johnson wins (unless somehow May wins on the second ballot) and then, presumably, he takes responsibility for this whole mess he helped to create and steers UK's Article 50 exit. But of course whether he will willingly take responsibility for all the ensuing economic chaos and catastrophe that happens afterwards is also a question of political courage or cowardice. I suspect under Johnson it'll end up being a Tory-UKIP coalition anyway extricating the UK from the EU.

I'm still stunned by it.
They honestly can't see it's going to be a recurring problem for them and their rule is over.
The public will continue to hand them absolute lemons like this until they give up and relinquish power.

[Divitaen]

So eeeeeeeenyway, I assume this hasn't been posted?

The developments of the past 36 hours or so are not giving me confidence that the Brexit will actually happen. Really seems that Leave painted themselves into a corner.

Building off the comment off the Guardian that has been discussed here already—the lack of endgame from Leave has been seriously hampering its ability to control the narrative and we're already four days into this. They never really decided on whether this was about sending a message or actually leaving and now it's really coming back to bite them.

"We must reach out, we must heal, we must build bridges - because it is clear that some have feelings of dismay, and of loss, and confusion."

And that's just the Leave voters who thought this would ban Muslims, fund the NHS, and send England to the Euro final.

---

Scotland will be liberated using EU arms and weapons under the Common Security and Defense Policy from the oppressive anglowelshmen.

Millions of FN FALs will be air-dropped on Scotland, and then they'll sort themselves out.

---

Can you just imagine the reaction on here if Donald Trump were to somehow win the 2016 election? It would just go nuclear, I tell you. I would relish it almost as much as how Brexit happened.

This is the first chink in the EU's armor, it can be toppled and overthrown perhaps as easily as the north Vietnamese tank smashed the gate of the US embassy in Saigon, the domino effect just needs to be set into motion. Everything is there to kick the Muslim immigrants out of Europe if only certain events happen as I want them to.

Britain is metaphorically(for now) burning it self to the ground and you think this will encourage other nations to leave the EU?

Well don't forget that other European nations are engulfed by the same forces of revanchist nativism, xenophobia and vitriolic racism that allowed the Leave campaign to win in the first place, so people like you and I can sit here and evaluate Brexit as a disaster, but for the racists across Europe, if Britain gets negotiated trade terms with EU nations, it may look like a good thing, Britain getting to cut migration while trading with the EU and what not. From a xenophobic perspective it looks like a win-win, even though of course we all know the markets are in chaos and freefall.

[HMS Vanguard]

Isn't it theoretically possible for Theresa May to win the Tory leadership election? Like you and I both said its not likely given that most Tory voters clearly voted for Leave, mathematically, so they are likely to vote for Johnson but given that polls show he is only at 41% now its theoretically possible that on the second ballot Theresa May could actually overtake Johnson and become PM, in which case as you said the chaos would actually worsen with a Remain PM trying to extricate the UK from the EU. I have no idea how that would work out at all. As for the Scottish referendum, most people seem to think it is very likely so that is bound to complicate things. I don't even know if Johnson or May would grant such a referendum and honestly I'm clueless as to whether Westminster can just turn down the referendum or refuse to let Scotland hold one, or if they would do such a thing if requested.

If May becomes PM and attempts to stay in the EU then we will see chaos, probably the destruction of the Conservative Party. I do not see MPs who declared for Leave staying in it at that point. If she negotiates a very minimal exit deal that results in near-status quo, that could be a good outcome. It would soothe feelings in the country without ruling out future, managed, withdrawal from EU institutions at a later time.

A Scottish referendum will simply be palmed off until we can see the terms. The government will be playing for keeps this time. I doubt Scotland will be allowed an orderly, seamless transition; it will be told to try out the independence terms and then quit and rejoin the EU if it chooses. This sinks Scottish independence which is really why Sturgeon is so desperate to call a new referendum. She is not in a position of strength, she is facing the disappearance of her last real chance of achieving Scottish independence.

[Divitaen]

Or at least until the Tory leadership election, which should by right happen in October if I'm not wrong. Then, presumably, Johnson wins (unless somehow May wins on the second ballot) and then, presumably, he takes responsibility for this whole mess he helped to create and steers UK's Article 50 exit. But of course whether he will willingly take responsibility for all the ensuing economic chaos and catastrophe that happens afterwards is also a question of political courage or cowardice. I suspect under Johnson it'll end up being a Tory-UKIP coalition anyway extricating the UK from the EU.

I'm still stunned by it.
They honestly can't see it's going to be a recurring problem for them and their rule is over.
The public will continue to hand them absolute lemons like this until they give up and relinquish power.

The public is powerless to do anything about it. Let's not let the public go either, I hate the political cowardice being demonstrated by UK politicians now but the only reason we are all in this mess is a group of xenophobic Leave voters decide to let Project Hate win by voting based on their racist, vitriolic emotions to put the whole UK economy in dire catastrophe just to spit in the face of non-white migrants.

[Seraven]

So eeeeeeeenyway, I assume this hasn't been posted?

The developments of the past 36 hours or so are not giving me confidence that the Brexit will actually happen. Really seems that Leave painted themselves into a corner.

Building off the comment off the Guardian that has been discussed here already—the lack of endgame from Leave has been seriously hampering its ability to control the narrative and we're already four days into this. They never really decided on whether this was about sending a message or actually leaving and now it's really coming back to bite them.

Although I am not a fan of the leavers, truth to be said neither of them said they would love to be cut off from Europe. They want to continue trade only do not want to be part of it, like Switzerland and Norway.

But Switzerland and Norway paid a whole lot of money for trade treaties with EU.

[Ostroeuropa]

Isn't it theoretically possible for Theresa May to win the Tory leadership election? Like you and I both said its not likely given that most Tory voters clearly voted for Leave, mathematically, so they are likely to vote for Johnson but given that polls show he is only at 41% now its theoretically possible that on the second ballot Theresa May could actually overtake Johnson and become PM, in which case as you said the chaos would actually worsen with a Remain PM trying to extricate the UK from the EU. I have no idea how that would work out at all. As for the Scottish referendum, most people seem to think it is very likely so that is bound to complicate things. I don't even know if Johnson or May would grant such a referendum and honestly I'm clueless as to whether Westminster can just turn down the referendum or refuse to let Scotland hold one, or if they would do such a thing if requested.

If May becomes PM and attempts to stay in the EU then we will see chaos, probably the destruction of the Conservative Party. I do not see MPs who declared for Leave staying in it at that point. If she negotiates a very minimal exit deal that results in near-status quo, that could be a good outcome. It would soothe feelings in the country without ruling out future, managed, withdrawal from EU institutions at a later time.

A Scottish referendum will simply be palmed off until we can see the terms. The government will be playing for keeps this time. I doubt Scotland will be allowed an orderly, seamless transition; it will be told to try out the independence terms and then quit and rejoin the EU if it chooses. This sinks Scottish independence which is really why Sturgeon is so desperate to call a new referendum. She is not in a position of strength, she is facing the disappearance of her last real chance of achieving Scottish independence.

You're ignoring that she's already pandering to the financial sector and their concerns, and telling them to move to Glasgow, which when Scotland rejoins the EU, would return them to being able to do business.
That would also sufficiently boost Scotlands economy.

She has a hell of a card to play, and that is membership of the EU in conjunction with being an English speaking country with similar legal structure.
For international companies who do most of their business in the EU, the conclusion is obvious.

[Ostroeuropa]

I'm still stunned by it.
They honestly can't see it's going to be a recurring problem for them and their rule is over.
The public will continue to hand them absolute lemons like this until they give up and relinquish power.

The public is powerless to do anything about it. Let's not let the public go either, I hate the political cowardice being demonstrated by UK politicians now but the only reason we are all in this mess is a group of xenophobic Leave voters decide to let Project Hate win by voting based on their racist, vitriolic emotions to put the whole UK economy in dire catastrophe just to spit in the face of non-white migrants.

You don't actually know anything about why we reached this point, and are just exemplifying the attitude that allowed it to get this far.
https://theintercept.com/2016/06/25/bre ... titutions/

[Divitaen]

Isn't it theoretically possible for Theresa May to win the Tory leadership election? Like you and I both said its not likely given that most Tory voters clearly voted for Leave, mathematically, so they are likely to vote for Johnson but given that polls show he is only at 41% now its theoretically possible that on the second ballot Theresa May could actually overtake Johnson and become PM, in which case as you said the chaos would actually worsen with a Remain PM trying to extricate the UK from the EU. I have no idea how that would work out at all. As for the Scottish referendum, most people seem to think it is very likely so that is bound to complicate things. I don't even know if Johnson or May would grant such a referendum and honestly I'm clueless as to whether Westminster can just turn down the referendum or refuse to let Scotland hold one, or if they would do such a thing if requested.

If May becomes PM and attempts to stay in the EU then we will see chaos, probably the destruction of the Conservative Party. I do not see MPs who declared for Leave staying in it at that point. If she negotiates a very minimal exit deal that results in near-status quo, that could be a good outcome. It would soothe feelings in the country without ruling out future, managed, withdrawal from EU institutions at a later time.

A Scottish referendum will simply be palmed off until we can see the terms. The government will be playing for keeps this time. I doubt Scotland will be allowed an orderly, seamless transition; it will be told to try out the independence terms and then quit and rejoin the EU if it chooses. This sinks Scottish independence which is really why Sturgeon is so desperate to call a new referendum. She is not in a position of strength, she is facing the disappearance of her last real chance of achieving Scottish independence.

As far as I can see, the minimal exit deal probably will not happen. The best-case scenario for the Leave campaign is they somehow stay in the EEA and somehow wriggle into the EU Single Market, while being allowed to implement Johnson's points-based immigration system. Obviously that is not going to happen, since a customs union relies on free movement of labour and capital within member nations to prevent grotesque trade imbalances between member nations, so obviously that isn't going to happen. Plus the EU is not going to allow the UK to get the 'best of both worlds' and control migration while maintaining status quo EU trading relations because that would basically invite other member nations to leave as well. So since that option's out the UK is just gonna have to leave the EU and deal with all the ridiculous economic consequences that come with it.

[Seraven]

If I didn't know better I'd say it was the Leavers who were getting upset, not the Remainers.

Because there are less people in the Remainers who regretted their decisions.

[HMS Vanguard]

If May becomes PM and attempts to stay in the EU then we will see chaos, probably the destruction of the Conservative Party. I do not see MPs who declared for Leave staying in it at that point. If she negotiates a very minimal exit deal that results in near-status quo, that could be a good outcome. It would soothe feelings in the country without ruling out future, managed, withdrawal from EU institutions at a later time.

A Scottish referendum will simply be palmed off until we can see the terms. The government will be playing for keeps this time. I doubt Scotland will be allowed an orderly, seamless transition; it will be told to try out the independence terms and then quit and rejoin the EU if it chooses. This sinks Scottish independence which is really why Sturgeon is so desperate to call a new referendum. She is not in a position of strength, she is facing the disappearance of her last real chance of achieving Scottish independence.

You're ignoring that she's already pandering to the financial sector and their concerns, and telling them to move to Glasgow, which when Scotland rejoins the EU, would return them to being able to do business.
That would also sufficiently boost Scotlands economy.

The financial sector is not going to move to fucking Glasgow. It would rather move to Shanghai. Realistically the London talent pool is what makes London rich; London will not stop being a cool place to live, and if financial services stops being the big money maker, London will just become the centre of the world for tech innovation or engineering, or whatever else instead. Intelligent people can do whatever they like.

She has a hell of a card to play, and that is membership of the EU in conjunction with being an English speaking country with similar legal structure.
For international companies who do most of their business in the EU, the conclusion is obvious.

Why do you think any of these companies were in London to start with? They speak English in Dublin, Ireland is in the Euro, and corporation tax is lower.