Islam/Muslim Discussion Thread ٢

[Darussalam]

Jochi, I noticed that you disliked Indonesia's Muhammadiya. Is that correct?

Yes. Why?

Why? It's a decidedly moderate group and not any worse than any other mainstream Muslim organizations. You appear to mistake it as a Wahhabi forefront. For that I can direct you to Islamic Defenders' Front (which is way, waay more worryingly active than Muhammadiyah will ever be) and...literally dozens other blooming extremist groups led by their own 'habibs' and 'sayyids'.

[Jochistan]

Yes. Why?

Why? It's a decidedly moderate group. You appear to mistake it as a Wahhabi forefront. For that, I can direct you to Islamic Defenders' Front and...literally dozens other blooming extremist groups led by their own 'habibs' and 'sayyids'.
Heck in retrospect I'd consider Nahdlatul Ulama as somewhat worse (still moderate though).

I must have it confused for something else then.

Corrupt sheikhs exist. Not denying that. But extremist groups that have Sufi derived elements from them ( ot sure why you bring them up now). Like The Muslim Brotherhood or the Deobandis are normally Sufi in the same way the Nazis were Socialists. (Yeah yeah, Godwins Law)

Islamic Defenders Front isn't even Sufi though.

[Darussalam]

Why? It's a decidedly moderate group. You appear to mistake it as a Wahhabi forefront. For that, I can direct you to Islamic Defenders' Front and...literally dozens other blooming extremist groups led by their own 'habibs' and 'sayyids'.
Heck in retrospect I'd consider Nahdlatul Ulama as somewhat worse (still moderate though).

I must have it confused for something else then.

Corrupt sheikhs exist. Not denying that. But extremist groups that have Sufi derived elements from them ( ot sure why you bring them up now). Like The Muslim Brotherhood or the Deobandis are normally Sufi in the same way the Nazis were Socialists. (Yeah yeah, Godwins Law)

Islamic Defenders Front isn't even Sufi though.

Oh, I'm not saying it is. I'm not even addressing Sufism--and Muhammadiyah is not necessarily anti-Sufi either. Sufis and traditionalists in general usually lean on the more tolerant, peaceful side of the faith, but this is not always true, in the same way not all reformist movements are Salafist ultra-conservatives.

Don't get me wrong, Muhammadiyah does have its own problems, but once again it's not particularly better or worse than other major Islamic organizations. I mean, one of its primary differences from NU that I can think of is that they used astronomical and mathematical calculations to determine holidays, while NU resorted to traditional ru'yat. So yes, it's not as dichotomical as you'd think.
In my opinion, traditionalist NU and modernist Muhammadiyah should be excellent allies to combat the growing hip internet fundamentalism. Aside from, well, general complaints to said two organizations'..rather half-assed approach to real problems.

[Jochistan]

I must have it confused for something else then.

Corrupt sheikhs exist. Not denying that. But extremist groups that have Sufi derived elements from them ( ot sure why you bring them up now). Like The Muslim Brotherhood or the Deobandis are normally Sufi in the same way the Nazis were Socialists. (Yeah yeah, Godwins Law)

Islamic Defenders Front isn't even Sufi though.

Oh, I'm not saying it is. I'm not even addressing Sufism--and Muhammadiyah is not necessarily anti-Sufi either. Sufis and traditionalists in general usually lean on the more tolerant, peaceful side of the faith, but this is not always true, in the same way not all reformist movements are Salafist ultra-conservatives.

Don't get me wrong, Muhammadiyah does have its own problems, but once again it's not particularly better or worse than other major Islamic organizations. I mean, one of its primary differences from NU that I can think of is that they used astronomical and mathematical calculations to determine holidays, while NU resorted to traditional ru'yat. So yes, it's not as dichotomical as you'd think.
In my opinion, traditionalist NU and modernist Muhammadiyah should be excellent allies to combat the growing hip internet fundamentalism. Aside from, well, general complaints to said two organizations'..rather half-assed approach to real problems.

Muhammadiyah I thought was the Wahhabi influenced one where they protest church and certain jumaa gatherings with hateful signs and stuff.

I guess that's a different one. My bad.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

That's not true. In the Osmanli (Ottoman) Empire, non-Muslims were governors. Besides, there's a lot of freedom in Islam to non-Muslims.

Do you have any source for this?
While Ottoman bureaucracy and military was indeed drawn from the non-Muslim populace, in my understanding this was done through devshirme, i.e tribute of blood, hardly a tolerant practice in itself, and the non-Muslim children later were forcefully converted to Islam.

Right.
http://www.muhammadfactcheck.org/?muham ... quer-mecca

This is correct, the Fathu Mekkah occurred only after an ally of the Quraish, Banu Bakr, attacked Banu Khuza'a, Medina's ally, nullifying the truce in the process. I think a more...objectionable policy of the Prophet can be seen in his treatment on Medina Jewish tribes, especially Banu Qurayza.

http://lostislamichistory.com/non-musli ... an-empire/

[Darussalam]

Oh, I'm not saying it is. I'm not even addressing Sufism--and Muhammadiyah is not necessarily anti-Sufi either. Sufis and traditionalists in general usually lean on the more tolerant, peaceful side of the faith, but this is not always true, in the same way not all reformist movements are Salafist ultra-conservatives.

Don't get me wrong, Muhammadiyah does have its own problems, but once again it's not particularly better or worse than other major Islamic organizations. I mean, one of its primary differences from NU that I can think of is that they used astronomical and mathematical calculations to determine holidays, while NU resorted to traditional ru'yat. So yes, it's not as dichotomical as you'd think.
In my opinion, traditionalist NU and modernist Muhammadiyah should be excellent allies to combat the growing hip internet fundamentalism. Aside from, well, general complaints to said two organizations'..rather half-assed approach to real problems.

Muhammadiyah I thought was the Wahhabi influenced one where they protest church and certain jumaa gatherings with hateful signs and stuff.

I guess that's a different one. My bad.

Yeah, you're looking for the Islamic Defenders' Front--as well as dozens other violent Islamic groups who forcefully evicted feminist/leftist meetings, shut book discussions, and protest Ahmadi mosques or "illegal" churches. They hardly represent all Indonesian Muslims, although I personally feel that the majority is too eerily silent to them.

[The wolfman from den]

Being Christian but also intrested in other religions reading this is concerning as it seems there's acknowledgement that Islam has loads of extrimiest orgainizations is this what I belive Mohammed (PBUH) warned would happen towards end time as the bible has said a lot of what's going on today aswell but I want to know is this what he said would happen

[Senegalboy]

You sure bout that?

Yes, in (true) democracy each member is viewed equal by the state, whereas in Islam, Muslims have more rights than dhimmis (other religions). In this fact, the nature of this democracy does not give equal vote to each member. Dhimmis also cannot have high positions in government or form their own parties (which by its nature is anti democratic). At most it can be a Theocratic Democracy (?) if such a thing can exist because only Islam can rule the land, while true democracy is secular. The Arabian peninsula for example can have no other religious buildings built there (illegal to build churches, synagogues etc...) as it is the land of the prophet. I'm not saying Islamic countries can't be democratic i'm just saying it's limited and contradictory to the true nature of a democracy, unless they remove the limits on other religions but then it becomes contradictory to Islam.

the abbasid caliphate started the direct democracy and even now libya made a jamhuriya which gave libyans direct democracy

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Yes, in (true) democracy each member is viewed equal by the state, whereas in Islam, Muslims have more rights than dhimmis (other religions). In this fact, the nature of this democracy does not give equal vote to each member. Dhimmis also cannot have high positions in government or form their own parties (which by its nature is anti democratic). At most it can be a Theocratic Democracy (?) if such a thing can exist because only Islam can rule the land, while true democracy is secular. The Arabian peninsula for example can have no other religious buildings built there (illegal to build churches, synagogues etc...) as it is the land of the prophet. I'm not saying Islamic countries can't be democratic i'm just saying it's limited and contradictory to the true nature of a democracy, unless they remove the limits on other religions but then it becomes contradictory to Islam.

the abbasid caliphate started the direct democracy and even now libya made a jamhuriya which gave libyans direct democracy

Assalamu 'Alaikum Senegalboy! How you doing? And what is a Jamhuriya and how does it work?

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

the abbasid caliphate started the direct democracy and even now libya made a jamhuriya which gave libyans direct democracy

Assalamu 'Alaikum Senegalboy! How you doing? And what is a Jamhuriya and how does it work?

It means Republic in Arabic and it doesn't work only Shari'ah does.

[Senegalboy]

the abbasid caliphate started the direct democracy and even now libya made a jamhuriya which gave libyans direct democracy

Assalamu 'Alaikum Senegalboy! How you doing? And what is a Jamhuriya and how does it work?

alhamdulillah,im fine how are you a jamhuriya literally means state of the masses and it basically it is when the people literally votes for their laws and this is the best democracy when the people literally can vote on laws

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Assalamu 'Alaikum Senegalboy! How you doing? And what is a Jamhuriya and how does it work?

It means Republic in Arabic and it doesn't work only Shari'ah does.

Assalamu 'Alaikum. I see what you're saying.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Assalamu 'Alaikum Senegalboy! How you doing? And what is a Jamhuriya and how does it work?

alhamdulillah,im fine how are you a jamhuriya literally means state of the masses and it basically it is when the people literally votes for their laws and this is the best democracy when the people literally can vote on laws

So kind of like a bunch referendums? That's cool.

[Jochistan]

I must have it confused for something else then.

Corrupt sheikhs exist. Not denying that. But extremist groups that have Sufi derived elements from them ( ot sure why you bring them up now). Like The Muslim Brotherhood or the Deobandis are normally Sufi in the same way the Nazis were Socialists. (Yeah yeah, Godwins Law)

Islamic Defenders Front isn't even Sufi though.

Oh, I'm not saying it is. I'm not even addressing Sufism--and Muhammadiyah is not necessarily anti-Sufi either. Sufis and traditionalists in general usually lean on the more tolerant, peaceful side of the faith, but this is not always true, in the same way not all reformist movements are Salafist ultra-conservatives.

Sunnis that are not explicitly Sufi are normally ultraorthodox, legalistic, puritanical and implicitly Salafist.

While Sufis are conservative enough to make liberals mad with the promotion of traditional gender roles and ambivalence towards abortion, euthanasia, fornication, homosexuality, prostitution and alcohol and same "apologism" for war in Islamic history, often rejection of secular or "egalitarian" values. And beleif in the ultimate Truth of Islam over other traditions.

There are barely any that scratch the surface of the legalism promoted by fundamentalists. Or openly and freely advocate death for everything they count as major or mi or sins.

There's two Sufi militant groups I can think of. One is legitimately moderate and extremeley opposing to the so called Islamic Hudud done in Somalia
and the other are Secular Ba'athists.

You might be able to count the Barelvis and Deobandis, who are often very supportive of the vicious laws in Pakistan, as Sufi, even though they are mostly their own thing. But that would be a stretch.

[The wolfman from den]

Typical get no response as I try and find out more is this how u reward me I may be Christian but got friends of all faiths so was intrested in finding out more and used current events v what the Quaran apparently warned against. Yet I don't adress what I asked

[The wolfman from den]

Typical get no response as I try and find out more is this how u reward me I may be Christian but got friends of all faiths so was intrested in finding out more and used current events v what the Quaran apparently warned against. Yet I don't adress what I asked

[Jochistan]

Typical get no response as I try and find out more is this how u reward me I may be Christian but got friends of all faiths so was intrested in finding out more and used current events v what the Quaran apparently warned against. Yet I don't adress what I asked

Whoa, easy. It's all good. Sorry if people missed your post there.

Welcome, Salaams. Ask anything. It's all good.

[The wolfman from den]

I did express concern at the number of extrimiest and said I guys acknowledged this and then asked is this what Mohammad (PBUH) warned about in the Quaran would happen in his end time prophacey and sorry for my abruptness felt I got ignored

[Jochistan]

I did express concern at the number of extrimiest and said I guys acknowledged this and then asked is this what Mohammad (PBUH) warned about in the Quaran would happen in his end time prophacey and sorry for my abruptness felt I got ignored

Yeah there are definitely a lot of extremist Islamists. The actual Jihadis are only a few. But the Fundamentalists are many at this point.

Muhammad did warn of a time where men with black flags would come and make havoc across the world. And that there would come a time where books are focused on more than the heart (literalism) and that our scholars will be the worst among men. I think that was a near end time prophecy. And it certainly looks like it today. But The Muslim world has gone through times like that before during the Ummayads and after the Mongol Invasion and under certain Caliphs and Sultans. So hopefully this is just another phase. Then again that might mean the time before the day of judgement is even worse than now.

[Mahdistan]

Assalamu 'Alaikum Senegalboy! How you doing? And what is a Jamhuriya and how does it work?

It means Republic in Arabic and it doesn't work only Shari'ah does.

But Jamhuriya, or any for of direct democracy for that matter, wouldn't be a law system, but a template for laws to be enacted. Wouldn't the system be righteous if it allowed people to choose Shariah? This seems ideal to me. Hadith, as I recall, never describe an actual way of choosing heads of state once the Caliphate is gone. The only thing I can think of is the reference to 'kings ruling the world' for a period, but that seems more like a prophecy rather than an order (correct me if it indeed does say that kings should rule rather than will). Even if it does though, could king not apply to all leaders? Does Quran or Hadith ever establish that these kingdoms, if it indeed does say we need them, have to be passed down from father to son, rather than being elected by popular vote, or even representative vote?

[Mahdistan]

Typical get no response as I try and find out more is this how u reward me I may be Christian but got friends of all faiths so was intrested in finding out more and used current events v what the Quaran apparently warned against. Yet I don't adress what I asked

Sorry, but I can only post about one time a day on most days. Believe me, we get questions and comments from all faiths, and we do our best to answer them when we can.

[Mahdistan]

Being Christian but also intrested in other religions reading this is concerning as it seems there's acknowledgement that Islam has loads of extrimiest orgainizations is this what I belive Mohammed (PBUH) warned would happen towards end time as the bible has said a lot of what's going on today aswell but I want to know is this what he said would happen

I don't specifically recall a Hadith about extremists tearing the world apart being a specific event preceding the end times, but it certainly is prophecized. But, other factors, such as the rise of Israel and Iran and Saudi Arabia waging proxy wars against each other do indicate that the end times might not be far off. On the other hand, the Quran also says we will never be precisely sure exactly when the last day will come, we can only see events preceding it; it might not be for another 1,000 years, for all we know, or it might be in a couple of days.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

Being Christian but also intrested in other religions reading this is concerning as it seems there's acknowledgement that Islam has loads of extrimiest orgainizations is this what I belive Mohammed (PBUH) warned would happen towards end time as the bible has said a lot of what's going on today aswell but I want to know is this what he said would happen

I don't specifically recall a Hadith about extremists tearing the world apart being a specific event preceding the end times, but it certainly is prophecized. But, other factors, such as the rise of Israel and Iran and Saudi Arabia waging proxy wars against each other do indicate that the end times might not be far off. On the other hand, the Quran also says we will never be precisely sure exactly when the last day will come, we can only see events preceding it; it might not be for another 1,000 years, for all we know, or it might be in a couple of days.

Im starting to get tired of NS tbh

[Mahdistan]

I don't specifically recall a Hadith about extremists tearing the world apart being a specific event preceding the end times, but it certainly is prophecized. But, other factors, such as the rise of Israel and Iran and Saudi Arabia waging proxy wars against each other do indicate that the end times might not be far off. On the other hand, the Quran also says we will never be precisely sure exactly when the last day will come, we can only see events preceding it; it might not be for another 1,000 years, for all we know, or it might be in a couple of days.

Im starting to get tired of NS tbh

But why?

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

@Mahd
I feel on edge all the time here most people are extremly rude I disagree with almost everyone here on everything. The moderation has extremly strict rules. Some people here just anger me. Also it seems like anime and ponies is big here that annoys me. The average NS user and I are totally different worlds. I was expecting making friends or something not being pissed off everytime I log on.