[US Election 2016] Democratic Primary Megathread III

[Kelinfort]

Presidents are loyal to their constituency, which is without fail, the middle class. Why? Well, they're usually the most prone to swing elections and on top of that, it's the middle class who starts revolutions. The upper class is content with the status quo, the lower classes are either too poor or too uninvolved in the process to openly revolt, without leadership. But it's the middle class which determines whether they side with the discontent of the working class or the material complacency of the upper class.

Well yes, we ultimately chose the people in charge. Even though they screw us over. I am not sad Trump and Sanders lost, they are the wrong people at the wrong time. But they do show the people are growing restless. The rich are getting scared.

I see it differently. The middle class itself is at a crossroads as it finds itself torn between a growing group of richer professionals and a sinking group of lower middle class workers. The dissatisfaction is at a point where something will happen. What will happen is anyone's guess, but in the next decade or so, the decision will be made, perhaps irrevocably, to either reaffirm America's established order or turn towards a more radical alternative.

We've seen this before and last time this happened, the established order won, with incremental change instead of swift change.

[Novus America]

Well yes, we ultimately chose the people in charge. Even though they screw us over. I am not sad Trump and Sanders lost, they are the wrong people at the wrong time. But they do show the people are growing restless. The rich are getting scared.

I see it differently. The middle class itself is at a crossroads as it finds itself torn between a growing group of richer professionals and a sinking group of lower middle class workers. The dissatisfaction is at a point where something will happen. What will happen is anyone's guess, but in the next decade or so, the decision will be made, perhaps irrevocably, to either reaffirm America's established order or turn towards a more radical alternative.

We've seen this before and last time this happened, the established order won, with incremental change instead of swift change.

Perhaps, but it was also neccesary to spur the incremental change. The established order will not make changes unless pressured to do so.

Of course we also had what happened in 1776 and 1861 but I sincerely hope it does not reach that point.

[Kelinfort]

I see it differently. The middle class itself is at a crossroads as it finds itself torn between a growing group of richer professionals and a sinking group of lower middle class workers. The dissatisfaction is at a point where something will happen. What will happen is anyone's guess, but in the next decade or so, the decision will be made, perhaps irrevocably, to either reaffirm America's established order or turn towards a more radical alternative.

We've seen this before and last time this happened, the established order won, with incremental change instead of swift change.

Perhaps, but it was also neccesary to spur the incremental change. The established order will not make changes unless pressured to do so.

Of course we also had what happened in 1776 and 1861 but I sincerely hope it does not reach that point.

1776 isn't really analogous to now nor is 1861. Ultimately, those were difference eras and while something terrible may happen with similarities to those two years, it will be a whole different beast altogether.

[Novus America]

Perhaps, but it was also neccesary to spur the incremental change. The established order will not make changes unless pressured to do so.

Of course we also had what happened in 1776 and 1861 but I sincerely hope it does not reach that point.

1776 isn't really analogous to now nor is 1861. Ultimately, those were difference eras and while something terrible may happen with similarities to those two years, it will be a whole different beast altogether.

Sure, it will be very different. But the point is that unless the established order gets its shit together things are just going to get worse and worse until a breaking point is reached.

[G-Tech Corporation]

One good thing about Hillary's candidacy- it gives me lot of amusement material, seeing y'all defend Wall Street bankers

[The United Territories of Providence]

Well yes, we ultimately chose the people in charge. Even though they screw us over. I am not sad Trump and Sanders lost, they are the wrong people at the wrong time. But they do show the people are growing restless. The rich are getting scared.

I see it differently. The middle class itself is at a crossroads as it finds itself torn between a growing group of richer professionals and a sinking group of lower middle class workers. The dissatisfaction is at a point where something will happen. What will happen is anyone's guess, but in the next decade or so, the decision will be made, perhaps irrevocably, to either reaffirm America's established order or turn towards a more radical alternative.

We've seen this before and last time this happened, the established order won, with incremental change instead of swift change.

I would argue that there is no tear. The middle class at this point, is essentially Americans earning under $50,000 in household income and would constitute the working class. The rich professionals, whose incomes are rising much faster than those in the working class, they aren't as big a group as the working class and they'd fit more comfortably in the top 20%. The idea we have of a middle class, is taken from an era that no longer exists and ignores that millions of people that are "technically middle class" are more like "working poor".

[Corrian]

1776 isn't really analogous to now nor is 1861. Ultimately, those were difference eras and while something terrible may happen with similarities to those two years, it will be a whole different beast altogether.

It's been 100+ years, I guess it is about time for something big to happen again

One good thing about Hillary's candidacy- it gives me lot of amusement material, seeing y'all defend Wall Street bankers

It's fun, ain't it?

[Maurepas]

One good thing about Hillary's candidacy- it gives me lot of amusement material, seeing y'all defend Wall Street bankers

I'd make the same argument if Bernie had been the nominee too. I'm no fan of the cronyism that has been granted to large bankers, bailing them out was never something I was on board with. But I've also not made it a secret that I think free trade is beneficial to the United States and that I'm a Capitalist at heart, and it just so happens that those interests align here with the regard to Trump being awful to both of us. It's no skin off my bones to have their vote.

But that doesn't change my position that they should be left to sink or swim on their own, be made to pay their taxes, and not given preferential treatment.

EDIT: Well, not the same argument, he liked the tariffs and the tradewars too, he just justified it differently, but you get my point, lol

[G-Tech Corporation]

One good thing about Hillary's candidacy- it gives me lot of amusement material, seeing y'all defend Wall Street bankers

I'd make the same argument if Bernie had been the nominee too. I'm no fan of the cronyism that has been granted to large bankers, bailing them out was never something I was on board with. But I've also not made it a secret that I think free trade is beneficial to the United States and that I'm a Capitalist at heart, and it just so happens that those interests align here with the regard to Trump being awful to both of us. It's no skin off my bones to have their vote.

But that doesn't change my position that they should be left to sink or swim on their own, be made to pay their taxes, and not given preferential treatment.

EDIT: Well, not the same argument, he liked the tariffs and the tradewars too, he just justified it differently, but you get my point, lol

Ah, I'm not speaking to your standpoint specifically; that's actually quite reasonable. Some of your Democratic colleagues like to trot out the rich/bankers as typical punching bags, but this cycle they've been forced to defend them because Hillary is so far in their pockets. It's downright amusing.

[Kelinfort]

One good thing about Hillary's candidacy- it gives me lot of amusement material, seeing y'all defend Wall Street bankers

Just look at my sig. To some, I'm an evil corporate shill. To others, I'm a pussy cuck.

[The Orson Empire]

One good thing about Hillary's candidacy- it gives me lot of amusement material, seeing y'all defend Wall Street bankers

It's why I still can't vote for her. Regardless of how bad Trump is, I can't vote for ideas that I am opposed to.

[Guy]

One good thing about Hillary's candidacy- it gives me lot of amusement material, seeing y'all defend Wall Street bankers

It's why I still can't vote for her. Regardless of how bad Trump is, I can't vote for ideas that I am opposed to.

You're opposed to the $12 minimum wage and a return to an industrial relations system based on collective bargaining?

[Yumyumsuppertime]

One good thing about Hillary's candidacy- it gives me lot of amusement material, seeing y'all defend Wall Street bankers

It's why I still can't vote for her. Regardless of how bad Trump is, I can't vote for ideas that I am opposed to.

Be specific about which ideas you're opposed to. I also assume that any candidate would have at least one or two ideas that you disagreed with, at least in part.

[Kelinfort]

It's why I still can't vote for her. Regardless of how bad Trump is, I can't vote for ideas that I am opposed to.

Be specific about which ideas you're opposed to. I also assume that any candidate would have at least one or two ideas that you disagreed with, at least in part.

It's about the speeches isn't it?

Or perhaps past policies. I do have to say, it's funny to see people harp her for changing views when we do it so frequently.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Be specific about which ideas you're opposed to. I also assume that any candidate would have at least one or two ideas that you disagreed with, at least in part.

It's about the speeches isn't it?

Or perhaps past policies. I do have to say, it's funny to see people harp her for changing views when we do it so frequently.

I, for one, haven't changed my opinion on that. I think that it would be right for her to release the transcripts of her speeches so that we know exactly what she told them in exchange for these huge sums of money. Even on a strategic level, it's a boneheaded move to not release them, because it allows people to fill in that information for themselves with words that are likely far worse than anything that was actually stated by her. That was my belief when I was backing Bernie, and it's my belief now. I won't defend her on this. I will, however, say that no matter what she's likely to have told them, it's not worth running the risk of having Trump in office.

[Truckee Meadows]

To avoid a Trump presidency, I would hold my nose and vote for Clinton (since I live in a swing state, Nevada).

But for people who live in states that are solidly blue or red -- now is the time to vote for Jill Stein. We need to send a firm message that politics in this country can no longer be dictated by the "lesser of two evils." If we can break 5% in a general election, the Green Party gets public campaign money from the FEC that we can use to pursue a large scale campaign in 2020 and beyond. Meanwhile, we should continue to field presidential candidates in the Democratic Party who are of Bernie's caliber. These two steps will accomplish many things -- including revolutionizing the Democratic Party and giving the Greens real power in politics.

Let's be real. At this point, 2016 is a lost cause for progressive ideals. We must look instead towards the 2017 (off-year) and 2018 (midterm) elections -- where people who share our values can use the network created by Bernie's campaign to run for local, state, and federal offices.

[Corrian]

I feel like Bernie will make candidates like that more willing to run as well.

He's already pointing out that people are trying to run in their local elections. He posted this gif as a response to people coming out to make change themselves when he called for his supporters to run in local elections.

[The Orson Empire]

It's why I still can't vote for her. Regardless of how bad Trump is, I can't vote for ideas that I am opposed to.

You're opposed to the $12 minimum wage and a return to an industrial relations system based on collective bargaining?

Talk is cheap, and based on Hillary's past, I don't expect her to live up to those promises.

[The Romulan Republic]

You're opposed to the $12 minimum wage and a return to an industrial relations system based on collective bargaining?

Talk is cheap, and based on Hillary's past, I don't expect her to live up to those promises.

She's been pretty consistent on 12.

I'd prefer 15, but I think there's a fair chance that we'll see 12 if the Democrats hold a majority in the House and Senate. Otherwise no, but that would be no fault of Clinton's.

Especially since a lot of places are going to 15 on their own initiative. 12 is if anything the compromise position now.

Clinton is sleazy, but she's not stupid. She knows there's only so far she can go from what her base wants.

Besides, a majority Democratic Congress might very well take the issue out of her hands and pass 12 weather she wants it or not.

[The Orson Empire]

Talk is cheap, and based on Hillary's past, I don't expect her to live up to those promises.

She's been pretty consistent on 12.

I'd prefer 15, but I think there's a fair chance that we'll see 12 if the Democrats hold a majority in the House and Senate. Otherwise no, but that would be no fault of Clinton's.

Especially since a lot of places are going to 15 on their own initiative. 12 is if anything the compromise position now.

Clinton is sleazy, but she's not stupid. She knows there's only so far she can go from what her base wants.

Besides, a majority Democratic Congress might very well take the issue out of her hands and pass 12 weather she wants it or not.

I don't really find her or the Democratic Party itself trustworthy anymore.

We shall see if they live up to their promises.

[The Romulan Republic]

She's been pretty consistent on 12.

I'd prefer 15, but I think there's a fair chance that we'll see 12 if the Democrats hold a majority in the House and Senate. Otherwise no, but that would be no fault of Clinton's.

Especially since a lot of places are going to 15 on their own initiative. 12 is if anything the compromise position now.

Clinton is sleazy, but she's not stupid. She knows there's only so far she can go from what her base wants.

Besides, a majority Democratic Congress might very well take the issue out of her hands and pass 12 weather she wants it or not.

I don't really find her or the Democratic Party itself trustworthy anymore.

We shall see if they live up to their promises.

I wonder if you are mistakenly taking the worst elements of the Democratic Party and assuming that they equate to all Democratic Party politicians.

As to Clinton herself, I don't trust her to do the right thing for its own sake, but I do generally trust her to act in a manner that will further her political goals, to the best of her ability. Breaking her promise for 12 dollars an hour probably wouldn't do that.

[The Orson Empire]

I don't really find her or the Democratic Party itself trustworthy anymore.

We shall see if they live up to their promises.

I wonder if you are mistakenly taking the worst elements of the Democratic Party and assuming that they equate to all Democratic Party politicians.

As to Clinton herself, I don't trust her to do the right thing for its own sake, but I do generally trust her to act in a manner that will further her political goals, to the best of her ability. Breaking her promise for 12 dollars an hour probably wouldn't do that.

I'm not. Not all Democratic politicians are bad, just as not all Republican politicians are bad. I still do not trust either parties as a whole, though.

[Corrian]

And if her words are anything to believe (Heh), she did say that she would sign $15 into law if it came to her desk. Not that it appears that it would...But still.

[The Orson Empire]

And if her words are anything to believe (Heh), she did say that she would sign $15 into law if it came to her desk. Not that it appears that it would...But still.

As I said earlier, talk is cheap.

[Kelinfort]

And if her words are anything to believe (Heh), she did say that she would sign $15 into law if it came to her desk. Not that it appears that it would...But still.

Quite frankly, that's a terrible idea for a national minimum wage law