Abortion: Pro-Choice or Pro-Life?

[Llamalandia]

No such duty exists. No such surrender exists. You don't get to claim such a thing.

Is anyone here really advocating punish women who have abortions though? I mean, I might I suppose if I'm being honest, though I kinda doubt it. It seems like it wouldn't be effective public policy.
And in fact I think many prolife people would argue that itis precisely because such woman are scared confused and desperate that we should limit abortion. Not saying that doesn't sound somewhat paternalistic. (Though I've rarely heard a woman claim,"I regret NOT having an abortion" but I have heard "I regret having an abortion" and generally in the latter case it is because they felt scared alone hopeless and without options. And of course there is occasionally the "I don't regret having an abortion" though again, don't here this too often though certainly far more than first quotation).

And sure i don't think too many people actually oppose trying to ameliorate the conditions which lead some women to elect for abortion.
But ok, presumi new eliminate all the social and economic factors leading to abortion and excluding the rape, health incest exceptions, may I ask in such a world would you then support banning abortions?

Also I agree with you on the if "you want to tell women what to do with their bodies you should be willing to pay for it." And earlier effectively called out the prolife movement as hypocritical for not merely paying women to not have an abortion. (Though I did also speculate that the economics of this may be problematic.)


Edit: sorry don't know why the quoting got screwed up.

Actually I agree. I personally have advocated for people who are strongly anti-abortion should also be strongly pro-birth control and strongly pro-adoption or resources for unwed mothers or single mothers. So I don't want to take abortion off the books per se, but I would very much like i to be more possible to talk about self control when it comes to sex as well.[/quote]
That sounds reasonable to me. And just to be honest here, kinda been criticize the the prolife religous right crowd with some sweeping generalizations. Obviously there are plenty of people who hold deep beliefs and live in accord with them, and they do do what they can to help the marginalized and do a lot of great work. Nor should I have painted the religous right as just awash in billions of dollars, sure there are some large institutions and mega churches, but many more are small fairly localized congregations that have a little money, but are by no means rich.
Likewise because being against abortions isn't all they do or all they care about there are other issues like promiscuity, condomn use etc which I may have disagreements on but at least respect their beliefs.

[New Edom]

Likewise because being against abortions isn't all they do or all they care about there are other issues like promiscuity, condomn use etc which I may have disagreements on but at least respect their beliefs.

Thanks for saying that. It would be great if more responded as you do and more common ground could be explored.

[Godular]

Y'know, upon some reflection I feel like Soldati's position resonates quite well with me. Hope they won't mind if I start incorporating elements of the position into my own. Though I already hold an almost completely parallel position on my own part, I think the justifications behind Soldati's position are more elegant in nature.

[The V O I D]

Edom, I'm curious. How would you go about enforcing your restrictions on abortion? And, say it were banned, how would such a ban be enforced?

Just wondering, because the only logistically sensible way would be to strap all women who have unwanted pregnancies down and sedate them until term carriage, as back-alley abortions or do it yourself abortions can, and do happen. Even with it being fully legal (though, in countries with it fully legal, back-alley abortions and do it yourself abortions are more for women who don't want anyone knowing they were pregnant to begin with).

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Edom, I'm curious. How would you go about enforcing your restrictions on abortion? And, say it were banned, how would such a ban be enforced?

Just wondering, because the only logistically sensible way would be to strap all women who have unwanted pregnancies down and sedate them until term carriage, as back-alley abortions or do it yourself abortions can, and do happen. Even with it being fully legal (though, in countries with it fully legal, back-alley abortions and do it yourself abortions are more for women who don't want anyone knowing they were pregnant to begin with).

I hate this argument. It's moving the argument from,"Is it right?" to,"Is it practical?" It's like asking how you're going to enforce a ban on murder without keeping everybody away from each other. Whether or not a ban is super effective is ultimately irrelevant, as its purpose is to permit prosecution of the act being banned.

[The V O I D]

Edom, I'm curious. How would you go about enforcing your restrictions on abortion? And, say it were banned, how would such a ban be enforced?

Just wondering, because the only logistically sensible way would be to strap all women who have unwanted pregnancies down and sedate them until term carriage, as back-alley abortions or do it yourself abortions can, and do happen. Even with it being fully legal (though, in countries with it fully legal, back-alley abortions and do it yourself abortions are more for women who don't want anyone knowing they were pregnant to begin with).

I hate this argument. It's moving the argument from,"Is it right?" to,"Is it practical?" It's like asking how you're going to enforce a ban on murder without keeping everybody away from each other. Whether or not a ban is super effective is ultimately irrelevant, as its purpose is to permit prosecution of the act being banned.

Yeah, but what I'm saying is it is logistically insane to try and enforce it, unlike normal laws against murder and such.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

I hate this argument. It's moving the argument from,"Is it right?" to,"Is it practical?" It's like asking how you're going to enforce a ban on murder without keeping everybody away from each other. Whether or not a ban is super effective is ultimately irrelevant, as its purpose is to permit prosecution of the act being banned.

Yeah, but what I'm saying is it is logistically insane to try and enforce it, unlike normal laws against murder and such.

Not really. If they find out you had an abortion, they arrest you and sentence you to twenty years of reeducation. And by reeducation I mean hypno sissy porn.

[The V O I D]

Yeah, but what I'm saying is it is logistically insane to try and enforce it, unlike normal laws against murder and such.

Not really. If they find out you had an abortion, they arrest you and sentence you to twenty years of reeducation. And by reeducation I mean hypno sissy porn.

To find out one had an abortion, one must know they were pregnant in the first place.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Not really. If they find out you had an abortion, they arrest you and sentence you to twenty years of reeducation. And by reeducation I mean hypno sissy porn.

To find out one had an abortion, one must know they were pregnant in the first place.

Irrelevant if they do find out. The point is being able to.

[Kshrlmnt]

That's actually a topic I haven't thought much about, as a pro-lifer myself--what sort of penalties would be appropriate if abortion was illegal. My approach to the topic tends to be mostly personal, in supporting organizations that provide support for mothers who might otherwise feel they had no choice but abortion, or counsel women who have aborted and regretted their choice. (I'm much more confident in my ability to make a difference there than in the political or debate arena.)

I tend to believe that the majority of women who choose to abort do so more because they believe they can't handle the alternative (or don't have one), than anything else. And I also believe that abortion hurts women. Considering that, and that fines or jail could aggravate a bad situation that may have pushed a woman into it, I'd probably focus punishment on the abortion provider instead.

Note: Due to a friend's unfortunate experience, I've seen that there is a place for certain procedures like D&C, such as in the case of a stillborn child. I view this as a different sort of case than abortion, though originally I might not have.

[Godular]

That's actually a topic I haven't thought much about, as a pro-lifer myself--what sort of penalties would be appropriate if abortion was illegal. My approach to the topic tends to be mostly personal, in supporting organizations that provide support for mothers who might otherwise feel they had no choice but abortion, or counsel women who have aborted and regretted their choice. (I'm much more confident in my ability to make a difference there than in the political or debate arena.)

I tend to believe that the majority of women who choose to abort do so more because they believe they can't handle the alternative (or don't have one), than anything else. And I also believe that abortion hurts women. Considering that, and that fines or jail could aggravate a bad situation that may have pushed a woman into it, I'd probably focus punishment on the abortion provider instead.

Note: Due to a friend's unfortunate experience, I've seen that there is a place for certain procedures like D&C, such as in the case of a stillborn child. I view this as a different sort of case than abortion, though originally I might not have.

Why focus on punishing anyone? Deal with the underlying cause first.

[The V O I D]

Meanwhile, ignoring all the women who got pregnant but didn't want to get pregnant.

[Mattopilos]

Yeah, but what I'm saying is it is logistically insane to try and enforce it, unlike normal laws against murder and such.

Not really. If they find out you had an abortion, they arrest you and sentence you to twenty years of reeducation. And by reeducation I mean hypno sissy porn.

One reason that banning abortions is bad, is because people try to find other, unsafe methods to abort. That is very dangerous and can lead to deaths in an unexpected way. Let's also remember YOU HAVE NO RIGHT OVER THEIR BODY.

[Kshrlmnt]

That's actually a topic I haven't thought much about, as a pro-lifer myself--what sort of penalties would be appropriate if abortion was illegal. My approach to the topic tends to be mostly personal, in supporting organizations that provide support for mothers who might otherwise feel they had no choice but abortion, or counsel women who have aborted and regretted their choice. (I'm much more confident in my ability to make a difference there than in the political or debate arena.)

I tend to believe that the majority of women who choose to abort do so more because they believe they can't handle the alternative (or don't have one), than anything else. And I also believe that abortion hurts women. Considering that, and that fines or jail could aggravate a bad situation that may have pushed a woman into it, I'd probably focus punishment on the abortion provider instead.

Note: Due to a friend's unfortunate experience, I've seen that there is a place for certain procedures like D&C, such as in the case of a stillborn child. I view this as a different sort of case than abortion, though originally I might not have.

Why focus on punishing anyone? Deal with the underlying cause first.

I mean, notice that's what I said I actually try to do, which is why I'd never really considered the topic of punishment.

[Godular]

Why focus on punishing anyone? Deal with the underlying cause first.

I mean, notice that's what I said I actually try to do, which is why I'd never really considered the topic of punishment.

Bringing up the concept of it being illegal without prompting though seems rather suspect. Makes it seem like you'd wish for it to be illegal if given the power to enact the change.

By all means, look to reduce the number of abortions, but understand that you're only treating symptoms with your approach. Support and Counseling only work for those who seek it out, and it would be better to find ways to reduce the chance of women having to go through that process without forcing them to alter their lifestyle because you might disagree with it.

Free and available contraception, comprehensive sex education, rework the welfare system to reduce the financial impact of an undesired pregnancy. Advocate for these things and you'd be achieving your objective and have pro-choice folks right alongside you.

[New Edom]

I mean, notice that's what I said I actually try to do, which is why I'd never really considered the topic of punishment.

Bringing up the concept of it being illegal without prompting though seems rather suspect. Makes it seem like you'd wish for it to be illegal if given the power to enact the change.

By all means, look to reduce the number of abortions, but understand that you're only treating symptoms with your approach. Support and Counseling only work for those who seek it out, and it would be better to find ways to reduce the chance of women having to go through that process without forcing them to alter their lifestyle because you might disagree with it.

Free and available contraception, comprehensive sex education, rework the welfare system to reduce the financial impact of an undesired pregnancy. Advocate for these things and you'd be achieving your objective and have pro-choice folks right alongside you.

Why is it that when I advocated for those things you threw insults at me and insisted I just wanted to control women's lives?

[Wallenburg]

Why is it that when I advocated for those things you threw insults at me and insisted I just wanted to control women's lives?

Because you also supported banning abortion on the basis that you hate feminists.

[Godular]

Bringing up the concept of it being illegal without prompting though seems rather suspect. Makes it seem like you'd wish for it to be illegal if given the power to enact the change.

By all means, look to reduce the number of abortions, but understand that you're only treating symptoms with your approach. Support and Counseling only work for those who seek it out, and it would be better to find ways to reduce the chance of women having to go through that process without forcing them to alter their lifestyle because you might disagree with it.

Free and available contraception, comprehensive sex education, rework the welfare system to reduce the financial impact of an undesired pregnancy. Advocate for these things and you'd be achieving your objective and have pro-choice folks right alongside you.

Why is it that when I advocated for those things you threw insults at me and insisted I just wanted to control women's lives?

Because you did. You wanted to restrict access to abortion. You can advocate for all that other stuff, but trying to restrict that necessary access is removing a right that women already have. Also, your reasons for doing so were pretty shit. 'Feminists R t3h p3wpz!' is a pretty terrible foundation for a position.

I also never called you names. I said your rationale was shallow, and that it is in your power to be the better person and serve as an example rather than go regressive out of spite.

[Stellonia]

Why is it that when I advocated for those things you threw insults at me and insisted I just wanted to control women's lives?

Because you did. You wanted to restrict access to abortion. You can advocate for all that other stuff, but trying to restrict that necessary access is removing a right that women already have.

You have to understand that the pro-life movement has nothing to do with "controlling women's lives" and everything to do with defending human life.

[Mattopilos]

Because you did. You wanted to restrict access to abortion. You can advocate for all that other stuff, but trying to restrict that necessary access is removing a right that women already have.

You have to understand that the pro-life movement has nothing to do with "controlling women's lives" and everything to do with defending human life.

Thinking they have a moral high ground the whole time. They seem to localize the issue to the life in the womb at the present time, and not the environment it is in, the health of the mother, and the living conditions in general. That, and the fact they ignore the child cannot consent for death OR life, so the choice of life or death is logically best left to the parents, not the state or religious groups.

[Socialist Nordia]

Because you did. You wanted to restrict access to abortion. You can advocate for all that other stuff, but trying to restrict that necessary access is removing a right that women already have.

You have to understand that the pro-life movement has nothing to do with "controlling women's lives" and everything to do with defending human life.

And defending the right to use another person's bodily resources without consent.

[The V O I D]

Because you did. You wanted to restrict access to abortion. You can advocate for all that other stuff, but trying to restrict that necessary access is removing a right that women already have.

You have to understand that the pro-life movement has nothing to do with "controlling women's lives" and everything to do with defending human life.

...by controlling women's lives, bodies, bodily resources, etc. without consent...

[Godular]

Because you did. You wanted to restrict access to abortion. You can advocate for all that other stuff, but trying to restrict that necessary access is removing a right that women already have.

You have to understand that the pro-life movement has nothing to do with "controlling women's lives" and everything to do with defending human life.

No I don't, because you're wrong.

[Stellonia]

You have to understand that the pro-life movement has nothing to do with "controlling women's lives" and everything to do with defending human life.

...by controlling women's lives, bodies, bodily resources, etc. without consent...

Before we go any further, how does the pro-life movement seek to "control women's lives," and how is abortion a "necessity"? I hear that sort of rhetoric pretty commonly from pro-choicers in this thread.

[The V O I D]

...by controlling women's lives, bodies, bodily resources, etc. without consent...

Before we go any further, how does the pro-life movement seek to "control women's lives," and how is abortion a "necessity"? I hear that sort of rhetoric pretty commonly from pro-choicers in this thread.

Let's see. For starters, you seek to force women who do not consent to being pregnant to give up nine months worth of their lives, bodily resources, and bodily space to a borderline parasitic organism, as well as expect the woman in question to do so with no qualms and no questions asked; whether it interferes in their lives or not.

Abortion is a necessity because it allows women to stop being pregnant if they do not consent to being such.