Abortion: Pro-Choice or Pro-Life?

[Ifreann]

That's a nonsense. The fetus is an unwanted and uninvited occupant. What laws are on the books in your state for removing unwanted intruders from your home? And that's just a building.

You are mistaking the forest for the trees:

A fetus never enters its mother. Half of it is already in the uterus before insemination. If I build a car in my garage, you may try to argue that every piece of the car had to enter at one point, so the car entered the garage. However a "car" doesn't exist if the materials it is composed of are not assembled. In fact, it is the body of the mother that constructs a fetus, so comparing a fetus in the womb to a thief in my house is not even analogous.

The woman isn't 'forcing' the fetus into existence. I'm not sure that's even possible outside of IVF.

Maybe not forcing. A fetus primarily exists as a result of action on the part of the mother, and (to be complete) the father.

Now all I can think is One Piece At A Time.

[Quokkastan]

You are mistaking the forest for the trees:

A fetus never enters its mother. Half of it is already in the uterus before insemination. If I build a car in my garage, you may try to argue that every piece of the car had to enter at one point, so the car entered the garage. However a "car" doesn't exist if the materials it is composed of are not assembled. In fact, it is the body of the mother that constructs a fetus, so comparing a fetus in the womb to a thief in my house is not even analogous.


Maybe not forcing. A fetus primarily exists as a result of action on the part of the mother, and (to be complete) the father.

Now all I can think is One Piece At A Time.

Suddenly I wonder if Luffy is pro-choice?

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Now all I can think is One Piece At A Time.

Suddenly I wonder if Luffy is pro-choice?

Captain Falcon is.

[Godular]

Your belief in this situation is simply that: a belief, devoid of factual support. If anything, it is a monumental example of special pleading, in that a woman defending herself from having her body used against her will by a born person is justifiable yet to do the same against one who has yet to be born is a heinous crime. It is logically consistent, especially if the individual taking such a position also purports to be in favor of equal and consistent treatment under the law.

Some folks claim that eating meat is murder. We might be inclined to laugh at this statement, but such individuals take it quite seriously. In this way, we note that certain individuals have a very subjective idea as to what would constitute 'murder', and it becomes necessary to focus on the most objective variant...

In a secular society such as ours, this variant does not include getting an abortion.

What I was trying to say was that this analogy will not change anyone's opinion about abortion.

It can and it has. It may not change your opinion, but you're not the only person who reads this thread.

Are you saying the unborn are rapists?(rhetorical)

Oh boy! Another strawman I can set on fire!

Although this statement is hypocritical, I recommend not stating a point unless you think it will change someone's mind.

Such a roundabout and spineless way of telling me to shut up. Here's a roundabout way of telling you no: FUCK no.

See my first response for why.

Here is a comic to lighten the mood.http://adam4d.com/dont-run-it-over/

That kind of comic doesn't lighten the mood at all. It annoys me greatly in that it quite arrogantly misstates the entire pro-choice argument, produces an analogy that doesn't work in order to do so, all in an effort to present one giant strawman argument that does its creator no favors.

I'd post a comic that would actually lighten the mood because its sole purpose is to entertain rather than push some dumb-as-shit argument that evinces only its authors arrogance and ignorance in grand fashion, but I'm not sure if posting a comic that has an attempted suicide on the first page is kosher with regards to the forum rules.

And finally: when the fuck did I become Luminesa? That kind of juxtaposition is pretty damn suspicious.

[Quokkastan]

And finally: when the fuck did I become Luminesa?

Somehow I've always known...

[Godular]

And finally: when the fuck did I become Luminesa?

Somehow I've always known...

Apparently you've known longer than I...

[Eyktima]

This forum is VICIOUS!
I knew the internet was a bad place to debate things, but this is like nothing i've ever seen.

[Wallenburg]

This forum is VICIOUS!
I knew the internet was a bad place to debate things, but this is like nothing i've ever seen.

I see, so when people defeat your arguments and call out your logical fallacies, that is "viciousness".

Right.

This forum is actually relatively civil and polite. We have a good moderation team, and the summers have yet to infest this thread. The only way in that you could honestly consider it vicious is that rather than you being able to dominate the debate elsewhere, people here effectively cut through your bullshit.

[Eyktima]

Cool beans

[Godular]

This forum is VICIOUS!
I knew the internet was a bad place to debate things, but this is like nothing i've ever seen.

See, here you demonstrate your lack of understanding as to what 'debate' means. It means discussion and an effort to justify your point of view according to certain agreed upon principles.

You however came in and simply stated your opinion and made an assertion that our arguments will not change your position. That is known as arguing in bad faith, more in line with the philosophical meaning of the phrase. Plugging your ears and 'la-la-la''-ing serves only to make your position seem childish.

You want to debate, you defend your position. You want respect, you defend your position with facts and maybe bring in a new argument.

Cool beans

Thank you for confirming my statement.

[Eyktima]

Oh I wasn't

[Godular]

Oh I wasn't

Mayhap not intentionally, but you did. Do please try to avoid posting if you are not going to contribute to the discussion.

[Arlathan and the Dales]

Oh I wasn't

Then perhaps you should actually contribute to debate, rather than state your opinion then react utterly shocked when people counter it. In order to avoid this misunderstanding, of course.

[Ochea]

"The abolitionist argument is trying to force your beliefs on someone else.

Anti-abolitionist argument: If you want to own slaves, do so. If you don't want to, don't do it.
Abolitionist argument: You can't own slaves because I don't want you to.

One argument gives you the freedom of choice, while the other restricts your freedom."

We have to objectively decide at some point where to draw the line. Some issues, such as rape, assault, theft, and slavery, are not rights protected by the freedom of choice. Therefore, we cannot assume that it is always bad to restrict individual choices.

Slavery and abortion are very different and should not be compared.

Slavery: Slaves were taken from their homes, families, and everything they have known and transported like cargo across an ocean. Then they were auctioned off as property, and sometimes separated from their families. Then they are forced to work for long hours with no pay and very little food or water. They were also brutally whipped, sometimes for no reason. Slaves had no human rights, and even after slavery was abolished, they were still treated unfairly.
Abortion: A fetus is killed to prevent unwanted childbirth.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Some times ago I posted something highlighting that the far right was taking power in Poland
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=358546&p=26445008&hilit=Poland#p26445008

Now it turns out that they're starting oppressing even more Polish women by try banning abortion - by supporting a petition calling for the ban on abortion

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/a ... aw-justice

The conservative legal group Ordo Iuris is well on the way to collecting the 100,000 petition signatures it needs. Members of the group will be on church steps again on Sunday, just as they were last week when dozens of Polish Catholics walked out of mass in protest at a bishops’ message stating that abortion is contrary to the “thou shalt not kill” commandment.

Outside parliament on Saturday coat hangers, brandished by protesters as symbols of the crude tools used for backstreet abortions, were interspersed with red-painted placards proclaiming “My womb, not the fatherland’s” but also broader messages, such as “Make love not PiS”.

“We have to show up the hypocrisy of the government. We must never allow them to say they are pro-women,” said Nowicka, a former MP and one of the instigators of Ratujmy Kobiety (“Let’s save women”) – a counter-petition calling for expanded abortion rights.

The new prime minister Beata Szydło, a woman with an huge problem of internalized misogyny, is endorsing the national anti-abortion petition.
I think that's a shame, really.
Polish women are reacting with a counter-petition, but it seems that the government is not just only betraying their election manifesto (that didn't talk about abortion) but also discriminating even against single mothers

The counter-petition calls for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks. “It is a tactical move,” said Nowacka. “We know we will not succeed but we hope to win the chance of a parliamentary confrontation between our bill and the one calling for a ban.”

Activists have, during the past week, flooded social media with a #TrudnyOkres (“Heavy Period”) campaign directed at Szydło and her government’s desire “to control our uteruses, ovaries, and pregnancies”. Comments include: “Dear Prime Minister Beata, I inform you that my menstrual cycle is going great. I got my period on time (my cycle lasts 31 days).” Another Facebook post reads: “Dear Mrs Prime Minister, my period is late. Maybe the time has come? I don’t have any income and I will be a single mother.”

Single parents with one child do not qualify for the government’s flagship 500 złotys-a-month (£88) child benefit – a key campaign promise that was paid out for the first time this month. Although Law and Justice tabled abortion-ban bills in opposition, the move was not in the party’s election manifesto. Government opponents point to a Kaczyński statement in 2007 when he said “a democratic, law-abiding state cannot force a raped woman to give birth to a child”.

Personally I think that the main minds behind the promotion of such barbaric and regressive petition are nothing less than misogynists, including the woman I don't want even name who have an huge problem of internalized misogyny and is in need of a good psychiatric. It must be the choice of every woman, and it should never be dictated by someone else’s religious beliefs.
This petition calling for a ban on abortion is disgusting to me, and I think that such medieval and toxic "opinions" are the proof that religions should have no part, never, in the managing of a state.

What do you think about what's happening in Poland?

I checked the petition calling for the ban on abortion: it has already reached 55,000 signatures, and that's very worrying, because they're actually supported by the government.

You want my opinion?

I think the Polish government are a bunch of idiots. I hope it fails, but considering we're talking about abortion, I'm sure emotions will run high and anti-abortion advocates will win the day.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

No it can't, actually, because abortion is an act that many people believe to be equivalent to murder.

And no one would ever say "I mean if you're personally against murder, that's fine, just don't kill anyone."

So we are at an impasse. You can't persuade us that abortion is not murder, and since we believe it to be murder, we want the state to take action against it.

But that's another issue since there's people who don't believe it to be murder. I mean I'm not fond of abortion myself, but I believe it being legal is necessary in some cases. It's better than the alternative of women seeking dangerous back alley abortions. Prohibition doesn't prevent an act from happening. At all.

I don't believe abortion is murder, for one.

However, I do think it is an unnecessary procedure in many circumstances where a better social safety net could achieve better results than abortion.

However, this isn't so evident for many people who scream that abortion is murder, so here we are.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Oh yeah she and my cousins ended up fine- but if she hadn't wanted to have kids, and had been forced to go through with that? Both she and them could have died is my point. They nearly did (they're fine now too, but it was a pretty near thing especially for one of them). People shouldn't be handed a potential death sentence (and an enormous burden even if it goes smoothly) just because a condom broke.



Do you understand that at present in the United States, the solutions are currently: abortion being legal, or abortion being illegal and millions of women getting fucked over? There isn't a plan to suddenly create a massive system to support adoption and childcare and give extra welfare to accidental parents and such. The plan, if abortion is made illegal, is currently "fuck you and your kid too", because kids whose parents are unable to support them also get screwed.

Also, what if someone just doesn't want a kid?

But we need to at least start working towards a better society, not simply saying, "But if we ban abortion, back alley abortions will happen." They don't have to, if we start working to fix the situation.

Problem is, you, Const, and I are probably among the minority who see that support is needed in many cases.

The majority of people in America would rather keep their money than actually have the government "steal" their money via taxation, which, to be honest, is the first step towards ANYTHING regarding a better safety net for everyone.

[Czechanada]

But that's another issue since there's people who don't believe it to be murder. I mean I'm not fond of abortion myself, but I believe it being legal is necessary in some cases. It's better than the alternative of women seeking dangerous back alley abortions. Prohibition doesn't prevent an act from happening. At all.

I don't believe abortion is murder, for one.

However, I do think it is an unnecessary procedure in many circumstances where a better social safety net could achieve better results than abortion.

However, this isn't so evident for many people who scream that abortion is murder, so here we are.

Yes.

It's far more productive and helpful to treat abortion as a matter of public health rather than as a matter of crime.

[Godular]

But we need to at least start working towards a better society, not simply saying, "But if we ban abortion, back alley abortions will happen." They don't have to, if we start working to fix the situation.

Problem is, you, Const, and I are probably among the minority who see that support is needed in many cases.

The majority of people in America would rather keep their money than actually have the government "steal" their money via taxation, which, to be honest, is the first step towards ANYTHING regarding a better safety net for everyone.

I kinda wish people would figure out the concept of 'Pay it forward'. Spend a little now to save a lot later, like how it worked out in Colorado. But nope, we get folks who say 'Free contraception sounds like socialism!' and go all knee-jerk.

Guess that means public restrooms and water fountains are socialist devilry too...

[Ifreann]

Suddenly I wonder if Luffy is pro-choice?

Captain Falcon is.

It took me a second, then I actually laughed out loud.

[FutureAmerica]

It's an adult woman's choice no matter what anyone says. A minor needs to consult with parents.

[Godular]

It's an adult woman's choice no matter what anyone says. A minor needs to consult with parents.

What if certain parents are responsible for the pregnancy in question?

Admittedly the rights of minors becomes a bit of a gray area with respect to certain precedents. Should a child be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy if the parents refuse to allow it? My gut response is that it is a special kind of betrayal to abandon a child in their time of need.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

It's an adult woman's choice no matter what anyone says. A minor needs to consult with parents.

If she's old enough that she can be forced to have a child by her parents/the courts, she's old enough to get an abortion. Parents shouldn't get to force their children to have babies. That's fucking sick.

[Ashmoria]

It's an adult woman's choice no matter what anyone says. A minor needs to consult with parents.

If she's old enough that she can be forced to have a child by her parents/the courts, she's old enough to get an abortion. Parents shouldn't get to force their children to have babies. That's fucking sick.

theres the problem with parental permission in a nutshell, eh?

when a minor wants to get a tattoo and the law is that they have to have parental permission no harm is done by denying it. they can get their tattoo as soon as they turn 18.

but when it comes to abortion its now or never. it cant wait until the minor becomes a legal adult.

[Grave_n_idle]

If she's old enough that she can be forced to have a child by her parents/the courts, she's old enough to get an abortion. Parents shouldn't get to force their children to have babies. That's fucking sick.

theres the problem with parental permission in a nutshell, eh?

when a minor wants to get a tattoo and the law is that they have to have parental permission no harm is done by denying it. they can get their tattoo as soon as they turn 18.

but when it comes to abortion its now or never. it cant wait until the minor becomes a legal adult.

The problem being, of course, that we are simultaneously arguing that the minor may have to act like an adult (have a child), and that they can't be considered an adult (parental permission requirement).