Christian Discussion Thread VII: The Christ Awakens.

[New confederate ramenia]

How do I pray better?

Could you be more specific?

I'm worried my "connection" and focus aren't good enough.

[Angleter]

I've never heard of them before, but it did take reading very far into that article to get the general idea of them. They sound like a bunch of cranky malcontents; the ecclesiastical equivalent of sitting on one's porch, shaking a cane and yelling at those kids to "turn down that music and get off my lawn".

They are like the Catholic version of the Muslim Brotherhood.

The MB are a political party, so no, no they're not.

[Jamzmania]

Yahshua (or you would call him Jesus) says you should pray in this manner.

Matthew 6:5-8

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

So pray in secret and don't use vain repetitions like the heathens, when you pray say what comes from the heart and pray only for what you have need. Thank the Lord and repent for your sins.

You know, Gene Ruyle once said, "A half truth is worse than a whole lie, because it makes it even harder to tell the difference between the two"


It's convenient how you quote Mathew 6:5-8 and use it to support an argument against ritualized prayer. Quite convenient since literally the next verses in that chapter are

"In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one."

Establishing a ritualized prayer, not off the top of the head, to be repeated again and again over ones life time, standing in direct opposition to your claim. I'm sure you didn't mean to hide that, and its omission was merely a lapse of memory?

That's only if you 1) take this to mean he is establishing a ritualized prayer instead of just giving an example of how one ought to pray, and 2) believe this to be a vain repetition.

[Angleter]

How do I pray better?

Yahshua (or you would call him Jesus) says you should pray in this manner.

Matthew 6:5-8

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

So pray in secret and don't use vain repetitions like the heathens, when you pray say what comes from the heart and pray only for what you have need. Thank the Lord and repent for your sins.

Further to the fact that he literally follows this with the Our Father, Jesus is neither ordering us to pray only in secret, nor condemning ritualised prayer. In the first two verses, his point isn't about where people pray, but why they pray. As with charity in the previous four verses, Jesus is condemning the use of prayer to make a point of one's piety to other people. They seek earthly adulation, and that is their reward.

As for 'vain repetitions', he's condemning the prayers of the heathens (or ethnikoi - the nations), not the Jews - who, of course, had ritualised prayer. Which the Apostles continued to participate in (see, for example, Acts 3:1). I've always taken the passage as condemning the use of mantras and suchlike, where the words themselves are considered to have some intrinsic spiritual value.

[Jamzmania]

Yahshua (or you would call him Jesus) says you should pray in this manner.

Matthew 6:5-8

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

So pray in secret and don't use vain repetitions like the heathens, when you pray say what comes from the heart and pray only for what you have need. Thank the Lord and repent for your sins.

Further to the fact that he literally follows this with the Our Father, Jesus is neither ordering us to pray only in secret, nor condemning ritualised prayer. In the first two verses, his point isn't about where people pray, but why they pray. As with charity in the previous four verses, Jesus is condemning the use of prayer to make a point of one's piety to other people. They seek earthly adulation, and that is their reward.

As for 'vain repetitions', he's condemning the prayers of the heathens (or ethnikoi - the nations), not the Jews - who, of course, had ritualised prayer. Which the Apostles continued to participate in (see, for example, Acts 3:1). I've always taken the passage as condemning the use of mantras and suchlike, where the words themselves are considered to have some intrinsic spiritual value.

A good example of "vain repetitions," I think, would be many Muslim prayers. Muslims often repeat memorized prayers in a language most of them don't even understand. Prayers need to have meaning to you, not just be what you're "supposed to say."

[Salus Maior]

I'm worried my "connection" and focus aren't good enough.

Well, where do you usually pray?

If it's somewhere where there's a lot of distractions, that might be a problem.

[Luminesa]

...Like I said. How about no? XD

You at least got to butter her up with some German Marching music.

>>

No really, it's her weakness.

Is not.

*Has German marching music playing in background.*

I mean...

[Herskerstad]

You at least got to butter her up with some German Marching music.

>>

No really, it's her weakness.

Is not.

*Has German marching music playing in background.*

I mean...

It's funny, my granddad, God rest his soul, was rather fond of marching music, and in particular, the marching music used in the Third Reich.

And no, he was not a nazi, in fact, he was part of the Norwegian resistance. He was very vocal that not only Lili Marleen should cross the musical borders during war, as all the great nations had masterpieces in their own right.

Of course, getting that music in when he was working as a UN peacekeeper in Israel of all places proved to be potentially the one and only time his harsh military ethos was overwritten by local sensibilities.

[Luminesa]

Is not.

*Has German marching music playing in background.*

I mean...

It's funny, my granddad, God rest his soul, was rather fond of marching music, and in particular, the marching music used in the Third Reich.

And no, he was not a nazi, in fact, he was part of the Norwegian resistance. He was very vocal that not only Lili Marleen should cross the musical borders during war, as all the great nations had masterpieces in their own right.

Of course, getting that music in when he was working as a UN peacekeeper in Israel of all places proved to be potentially the one and only time his harsh military ethos was overwritten by local sensibilities.

...Yeaaaaaahhhh...I can see how that would happen.

But your grandpa sounds like he was an awesome person. ^-^

[Camaalbakrius]

It's funny, my granddad, God rest his soul, was rather fond of marching music, and in particular, the marching music used in the Third Reich.

And no, he was not a nazi, in fact, he was part of the Norwegian resistance. He was very vocal that not only Lili Marleen should cross the musical borders during war, as all the great nations had masterpieces in their own right.

Of course, getting that music in when he was working as a UN peacekeeper in Israel of all places proved to be potentially the one and only time his harsh military ethos was overwritten by local sensibilities.

...Yeaaaaaahhhh...I can see how that would happen.

But your grandpa sounds like he was an awesome person. ^-^

You know, I read somewhere that in one of the forests in Germany, there are a bunch of painted trees that, from above, make a very clear giant Swastika. Apparently it's been there for a while

[Tarsonis Survivors]

You know, Gene Ruyle once said, "A half truth is worse than a whole lie, because it makes it even harder to tell the difference between the two"


It's convenient how you quote Mathew 6:5-8 and use it to support an argument against ritualized prayer. Quite convenient since literally the next verses in that chapter are

"In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one."

Establishing a ritualized prayer, not off the top of the head, to be repeated again and again over ones life time, standing in direct opposition to your claim. I'm sure you didn't mean to hide that, and its omission was merely a lapse of memory?

That's only if you 1) take this to mean he is establishing a ritualized prayer instead of just giving an example of how one ought to pray, and 2) believe this to be a vain repetition.

It's not a vain repetition, but peacemakers is presenting it as such.

Also in conjunction with verse 8, it is clear Jesus is teaching against spit balling, in favor of a ritualized prayer.

[Most Eternal Angvaria]

I support the SSPX so much...

Is that true?

I was an avid fan of the SSPX 46 years ago...

[Diopolis]

The Society of St. Pius X is a Traditionalist Catholic sect that is not in communion with the official Church. They hold far-right fascist views and they sympathize with fascist regimes such as Vichy France. They even offer pilgrimages to the tomb of Vichy dictator Philippe Petain.

They're worse than I thought then.

Ignoring, of course, that that's not actually true. SSPX probably is pretty far right, but they're reactionaries rather than fascists. They're also not heretics- they allow the vatican to audit their seminaries, which routinely get high marks for doctrinal orthodoxy- which is more than one can say for many orders in regular union. They are in rather poor union with Rome, which is almost entirely their own fault, although that's likely to change in the next few years due to ongoing talks.

[Pope Joan]

How do I pray better?

Yahshua (or you would call him Jesus) says you should pray in this manner.

Matthew 6:5-8

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

So pray in secret and don't use vain repetitions like the heathens, when you pray say what comes from the heart and pray only for what you have need. Thank the Lord and repent for your sins.

.
A Scots pastor used to start each day in a bare room with only a desk chair, lamp and bible; there he would pray for one hour.
It happened that his congregation was facing some great crisis; the Pastor's friends said to him "In light of this situation, we think you should temporarily revise this habit of prayer", thinking that he would be more active in talking to others in order to find a solution. "You are right" he declared. "From now on, it's a minimum of TWO hours."

[Nordengrund]

I have searching for the path God intends for me to take. I have figured out some of what I am supposed to do like my passions and talents, but I don't have any specifics.

I looked up the meaning of my full name as I was curious what it meant when all the names are put together, and I came across something called numerology. Basically your name has a numerical value assigned to it in different categories and they affect your personality, skills and other areas in life. I was suspicious as it seems New Agey, but apparently, Hebrew and Greek names used numerology and the letters were also numbers.

What is your thoughts on this? Should we be cautious of it.

[Jamzmania]

That's only if you 1) take this to mean he is establishing a ritualized prayer instead of just giving an example of how one ought to pray, and 2) believe this to be a vain repetition.

It's not a vain repetition, but peacemakers is presenting it as such.

Also in conjunction with verse 8, it is clear Jesus is teaching against spit balling, in favor of a ritualized prayer.

I don't think he was, but whatever.

I don't see how verse 8 is a teaching against praying with your own words and in favor of ritualized prayer.

"Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him."

The "them" in this verse refers to the heathens who use vain repetitions. I just don't see how this says, "Ye shall pray only in memorized verse."

[Jamzmania]

I have searching for the path God intends for me to take. I have figured out some of what I am supposed to do like my passions and talents, but I don't have any specifics.

I looked up the meaning of my full name as I was curious what it meant when all the names are put together, and I came across something called numerology. Basically your name has a numerical value assigned to it in different categories and they affect your personality, skills and other areas in life. I was suspicious as it seems New Agey, but apparently, Hebrew and Greek names used numerology and the letters were also numbers.

What is your thoughts on this? Should we be cautious of it.

The numbers of your name don't define who you are. I would venture to say they don't even affect you.

[Nordengrund]

I have searching for the path God intends for me to take. I have figured out some of what I am supposed to do like my passions and talents, but I don't have any specifics.

I looked up the meaning of my full name as I was curious what it meant when all the names are put together, and I came across something called numerology. Basically your name has a numerical value assigned to it in different categories and they affect your personality, skills and other areas in life. I was suspicious as it seems New Agey, but apparently, Hebrew and Greek names used numerology and the letters were also numbers.

What is your thoughts on this? Should we be cautious of it.

The numbers of your name don't define who you are. I would venture to say they don't even affect you.

Probably. I did insert my full name as an experiment and the results pretty much defined me exactly.

[Jamzmania]

The numbers of your name don't define who you are. I would venture to say they don't even affect you.

Probably. I did insert my full name as an experiment and the results pretty much defined me exactly.

They probably have very generalized, vague characteristics that can pretty much define anyone.

[Herskerstad]

Is that true?

I was an avid fan of the SSPX 46 years ago...

And now you are presumably over 60 years of age with an anime girl avatar?

[Tarsonis Survivors]

It's not a vain repetition, but peacemakers is presenting it as such.

Also in conjunction with verse 8, it is clear Jesus is teaching against spit balling, in favor of a ritualized prayer.

I don't think he was, but whatever.

I don't see how verse 8 is a teaching against praying with your own words and in favor of ritualized prayer.

"Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him."

The "them" in this verse refers to the heathens who use vain repetitions. I just don't see how this says, "Ye shall pray only in memorized verse."

This discussion barely scratches the surface of prayer, but to the point:


"8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9 “Pray then in this way:"

He's clearly pointing out that God knows what you need before you even ask, thus there is no need to enumerate them specifically. There's no need to list of desires, wishes, and requests, He already knows what they are. Instead, then offer up this ritualized type of prayer. The "Our Father" Glorifies God, and prostrates oneself before God.

There's no need to spitball it.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

I have searching for the path God intends for me to take. I have figured out some of what I am supposed to do like my passions and talents, but I don't have any specifics.

I looked up the meaning of my full name as I was curious what it meant when all the names are put together, and I came across something called numerology. Basically your name has a numerical value assigned to it in different categories and they affect your personality, skills and other areas in life. I was suspicious as it seems New Agey, but apparently, Hebrew and Greek names used numerology and the letters were also numbers.

What is your thoughts on this? Should we be cautious of it.

It's important to note, that Hebrew/Greek numerology is descriptive not prescriptive

[Jamzmania]

I don't think he was, but whatever.

I don't see how verse 8 is a teaching against praying with your own words and in favor of ritualized prayer.

"Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him."

The "them" in this verse refers to the heathens who use vain repetitions. I just don't see how this says, "Ye shall pray only in memorized verse."

This discussion barely scratches the surface of prayer, but to the point:


"8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9 “Pray then in this way:"

He's clearly pointing out that God knows what you need before you even ask, thus there is no need to enumerate them specifically. There's no need to list of desires, wishes, and requests, He already knows what they are. Instead, then offer up this ritualized type of prayer. The "Our Father" Glorifies God, and prostrates oneself before God.

There's no need to spitball it.

If you were to use the argument of "God already knows what you're going to say, so don't bother," then what's the point of praying at all? I also still do not believe that Jesus is establishing a ritualized prayer, he's simply giving an example. For example, in the King James Bible, verse 9 is rendered as such: "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name."

"After this manner" does not mean "always pray with these exact words."

[Urran]

What Jam said

[Coulee Croche]

This discussion barely scratches the surface of prayer, but to the point:


"8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9 “Pray then in this way:"

He's clearly pointing out that God knows what you need before you even ask, thus there is no need to enumerate them specifically. There's no need to list of desires, wishes, and requests, He already knows what they are. Instead, then offer up this ritualized type of prayer. The "Our Father" Glorifies God, and prostrates oneself before God.

There's no need to spitball it.

If you were to use the argument of "God already knows what you're going to say, so don't bother," then what's the point of praying at all?

So you pray because God doesnt know? We know he knows, we dont pray because he doesnt.