The UK Referendum on Membership of the European Union

[The Nihilistic view]

I don't see any reason why it would be negatively changed in any meaningful way. In the even that we leave I am quite sure an agreement will be made over those already in other countries to do with residency. That is just common sense and in the interest of both sides.

There are times when the Leave campaign's argument over potentially problematic areas boils down to a Panglossian 'everything will work out for the best in the best of all possible worlds'; it's predicated on simply brushing aside concerns by asserting that it's 'common sense' that the rest of the EU will reach a gentlemanly accommodation with the UK, so why worry?

The extent to which this often mirrors the SNP's position in the independence referendum doesn't escape me.

Does Poland and other eastern countries want upwards of a million people back to be unemployed? Does Spain and other common retirement places want to lose UK pensioners that inject money into their troubled economies? It's not Candide (apologies if I spelt it incorrectly) it's not believing these countries are run by a bunch of masochists who would also ignore the desires of their own people in that situation. I am sure they and their relatives don't want them sent home as much as any British people don't.

If you think they are like that then show me why you think that and how you came to that decision because it would be interesting to see why they would fancy it.

[Imperializt Russia]

There are times when the Leave campaign's argument over potentially problematic areas boils down to a Panglossian 'everything will work out for the best in the best of all possible worlds'; it's predicated on simply brushing aside concerns by asserting that it's 'common sense' that the rest of the EU will reach a gentlemanly accommodation with the UK, so why worry?

The extent to which this often mirrors the SNP's position in the independence referendum doesn't escape me.

Does Poland and other eastern countries want upwards of a million people back to be unemployed? Does Spain and other common retirement places want to lose UK pensioners that inject money into their troubled economies? It's not Candide (apologies if I spelt it incorrectly) it's not believing these countries are run by a bunch of masochists who would also ignore the desires of their own people in that situation. I am sure they and their relatives don't want them sent home as much as any British people don't.

If you think they are like that then show me why you think that and how you came to that decision because it would be interesting to see why they would fancy it.

Because it's how visas work. And the only country that's probably going to be more inconvenienced than the UK is by the change will be Spain, given their 1.3 million or however many British expats moved there.

[The Archregimancy]

There are times when the Leave campaign's argument over potentially problematic areas boils down to a Panglossian 'everything will work out for the best in the best of all possible worlds'; it's predicated on simply brushing aside concerns by asserting that it's 'common sense' that the rest of the EU will reach a gentlemanly accommodation with the UK, so why worry?

The extent to which this often mirrors the SNP's position in the independence referendum doesn't escape me.

Does Poland and other eastern countries want upwards of a million people back to be unemployed? Does Spain and other common retirement places want to lose UK pensioners that inject money into their troubled economies? It's not Candide (apologies if I spelt it incorrectly) it's not believing these countries are run by a bunch of masochists who would also ignore the desires of their own people in that situation. I am sure they and their relatives don't want them sent home as much as any British people don't.

If you think they are like that then show me why you think that and how you came to that decision because it would be interesting to see why they would fancy it.

That's not even remotely my argument.

My argument is that an assumption that governments will always act on the basis of what individual members of the public consider to be a 'common sense' approach on the apparent assumption that those governments will necessarily act on the basis of mutual self-interest is touchingly optimistic given that the history of politics amply demonstrates otherwise.

Let's put it this way... do you think that every British government since the Second World War has only ever acted sensibly on the basis of 'common sense', or do you think that some British governments have occasionally taken decisions that run counter to common sense and the country's best interests?

If you believe that some democratic governments have at times taken decisions that are manifestly against their common sense best interests as you define the latter, then please don't try and convince us that future democratic governments will necessarily make decisions that will align with your political arguments.

Politics in democratic societies are often messy and unpredictable; pretending that you know the future because you believe something to be right and true helps no one. And I really don't believe you're that naive anyway.

[New Benian Republic]

Because everything rise and fall like tides and nothing is forever. That's why this cycle is inevitable. EU will cease to exist same as Concert of Europe.

Only question is when and how.

Well, no, because Europe is no longer built on the balance of powers or a concert of those powers at conference. The European states no longer compete with each other in Europe or abroad, partly due to the EU encouraging them to co-operate, at least on some level.

Add further that warfare fundamentally changed over the last century several times, and the individual European states predictably weakened from the days of Empire in the face of both not having Empire, not having to fight each other, and the US and USSR muscling in on the whole "military in Europe" thing.

There is still a clear balance of power in the EU and all of Europe. Namely Germany at the top.

[Imperializt Russia]

Well, no, because Europe is no longer built on the balance of powers or a concert of those powers at conference. The European states no longer compete with each other in Europe or abroad, partly due to the EU encouraging them to co-operate, at least on some level.

Add further that warfare fundamentally changed over the last century several times, and the individual European states predictably weakened from the days of Empire in the face of both not having Empire, not having to fight each other, and the US and USSR muscling in on the whole "military in Europe" thing.

There is still a clear balance of power in the EU and all of Europe. Namely Germany at the top.

Yeah I forgot that time they tried to take back Alsace-Lorraine last March.

[Baltenstein]

Does Poland and other eastern countries want upwards of a million people back to be unemployed? Does Spain and other common retirement places want to lose UK pensioners that inject money into their troubled economies? It's not Candide (apologies if I spelt it incorrectly) it's not believing these countries are run by a bunch of masochists who would also ignore the desires of their own people in that situation. I am sure they and their relatives don't want them sent home as much as any British people don't.

If you think they are like that then show me why you think that and how you came to that decision because it would be interesting to see why they would fancy it.

Because it's how visas work. And the only country that's probably going to be more inconvenienced than the UK is by the change will be Spain, given their 1.3 million or however many British expats moved there.

I believe that, even after a possible "Out Wins" outcome of the referendum, the British government would strike bilateral agreements with both Poland and Spain so that the majority of Poles currently in Britain and the majority of Brits currently in Spain could stay where they are.

[New Benian Republic]

There is still a clear balance of power in the EU and all of Europe. Namely Germany at the top.

Yeah I forgot that time they tried to take back Alsace-Lorraine last March.

Not to mention yesterday they invaded Poland again. Anyways humor aside Germany is clearly one of the most powerful of the EU members and in some ways it seem to me that they abuse such position.

[Imperializt Russia]

Because it's how visas work. And the only country that's probably going to be more inconvenienced than the UK is by the change will be Spain, given their 1.3 million or however many British expats moved there.

I believe that, even after a possible "Out Wins" outcome of the referendum, the British government would strike bilateral agreements with both Poland and Spain so that the majority of Poles currently in Britain and the majority of Brits currently in Spain could stay where they are.

Poland, probably, Nap keeps saying how Poland and the UK actually would get along really well at the EU if they bothered to talk to one another and I'm inclined to take his word on it.

Spain has a lot to wring out of England over that.

[HMS Vanguard]

I don't even know who that is.

If I'm being really honest, I probably don't care.

While HMS Vanguard was engaging in a classic strawman argument - no one here had even mentioned Keir Hardie

What? A strawman argument means misrepresenting one's opponent's position.

Imperializt Russia argued that one shouldn't regard a person as a champion of an ideology unless they adhered to that ideology 100% consistently. I draw an analogy with Kier Hardie, who is lionised by socialists even though he did not adhere to socialism 100% consistently.

This is not a strawman argument.

[Imperializt Russia]

Yeah I forgot that time they tried to take back Alsace-Lorraine last March.

Not to mention yesterday they invaded Poland again. Anyways humor aside Germany is clearly one of the most powerful of the EU members and in some ways it seem to me that they abuse such position.

Well, they strike the lucky confluence of rough centre of Europe, strong manufacturing, advanced economy overall and relatively rich in resources.
So it's hardly surprising they have a position of power, but I fail to see claims that they "abuse" whatever this power manifests as little more than "teh evil EU".

[Ifreann]

There is still a clear balance of power in the EU and all of Europe. Namely Germany at the top.

Yeah I forgot that time they tried to take back Alsace-Lorraine last March.

I think you mean Merkelreichsland Elsass-Lothringen.

[Baltenstein]

I believe that, even after a possible "Out Wins" outcome of the referendum, the British government would strike bilateral agreements with both Poland and Spain so that the majority of Poles currently in Britain and the majority of Brits currently in Spain could stay where they are.

Poland, probably, Nap keeps saying how Poland and the UK actually would get along really well at the EU if they bothered to talk to one another and I'm inclined to take his word on it.

Spain has a lot to wring out of England over that.

Reconquista de Gibraltar, anyone?

[New Benian Republic]

Poland, probably, Nap keeps saying how Poland and the UK actually would get along really well at the EU if they bothered to talk to one another and I'm inclined to take his word on it.

Spain has a lot to wring out of England over that.

Reconquista de Gibraltar, anyone?

Hmmmm

[Geilinor]

Farage has criticized the Vote Leave campaign for not focusing on immigration, despite it not being the top issue for voters.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36167329
He also called Remain "the enemy".

[Imperializt Russia]

Farage has criticized the Vote Leave campaign for not focusing on immigration, despite it not being the top issue for voters.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36167329
He also called Remain "the enemy".

IBS tried turning the point towards immigration, what more does he want?

[Baltenstein]

Farage has criticized the Vote Leave campaign for not focusing on immigration, despite it not being the top issue for voters.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36167329
He also called Remain "the enemy".

To be fair, "taking the fight to the enemy" is a rather common speech figure.

[Socialist Czechia]

So, we should end it now, because... its inevitable that things must end?

When it's obvious that some thing will end soon, why to prolong the agony?

Wouldn't it be better, if UK declared war on Germany in 1936, instead of useless attempts to prolong status quo?

In some moment, it's better to stop lie each other and say: Well, we had good intentions, but we failed.

[Vassenor]

Farage has criticized the Vote Leave campaign for not focusing on immigration, despite it not being the top issue for voters.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36167329
He also called Remain "the enemy".

IBS tried turning the point towards immigration, what more does he want?

NF thinks they can win the entire thing by going on and on about Immigration and then they won't have to come up with an economic plan.

But he's totally not a racist, honest.

[Socialist Czechia]

I also see paralels with situation in COMECON, 1970s. When Brezhnev started his speech about unity and how much important is to remain on same path, socialist bloc was obviously in decline, both economically and politically, since reformists were largely purged and old guard by force only delayed the inevitable.

Same desperation I see around Merkel and pro-EU politicians generally today.
There's something wrong with construction, but it's architects still didn't considered the possibility, that foudantions are stable as much as Tower of Pisa. You can't fix it by covering holes on it's roof.

[The balkens]

I also see paralels with situation in COMECON, 1970s. When Brezhnev started his speech about unity and how much important is to remain on same path, socialist bloc was obviously in decline, both economically and politically, since reformists were largely purged and old guard by force only delayed the inevitable.

Same desperation I see around Merkel and pro-EU politicians generally today.
There's something wrong with construction, but it's architects still didn't considered the possibility, that foudantions are stable as much as Tower of Pisa. You can't fix it by covering holes on it's roof.

You have to rebuild the fucker from the ground up.

[Marcurix]

Australia seems to join the list of countries favouring an "in" vote.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu- ... m-36183444

[Ifreann]

Australia seems to join the list of countries favouring an "in" vote.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu- ... m-36183444

Those dastardly Strayans.

[Valaran]

So, we should end it now, because... its inevitable that things must end?

When it's obvious that some thing will end soon, why to prolong the agony?

Wouldn't it be better, if UK declared war on Germany in 1936, instead of useless attempts to prolong status quo?

In some moment, it's better to stop lie each other and say: Well, we had good intentions, but we failed.

Its not obvious though.

Yeah, but the EU is not Nazi Germany.

I haven't seen failure yet.

[Imperializt Russia]

So, we should end it now, because... its inevitable that things must end?

When it's obvious that some thing will end soon, why to prolong the agony?

Wouldn't it be better, if UK declared war on Germany in 1936, instead of useless attempts to prolong status quo?

In some moment, it's better to stop lie each other and say: Well, we had good intentions, but we failed.

Almost certainly not.

What cause would there even be in 1936 to declare war?

[Dooom35796821595]

When it's obvious that some thing will end soon, why to prolong the agony?

Wouldn't it be better, if UK declared war on Germany in 1936, instead of useless attempts to prolong status quo?

In some moment, it's better to stop lie each other and say: Well, we had good intentions, but we failed.

Its not obvious though.

Yeah, but the EU is not Nazi Germany.

I haven't seen failure yet.

Nazi Germany was the third Reich, the EU could be called the fourth.