NATION

PASSWORD

He/She... or the One?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:33 pm

The Two Jerseys wrote:
Ifreann wrote:No, that's what I taught the King's African Rifles. Somehow they didn't find it as interesting as I expected.

Ah, so you're a member of the Zimzam tribe?

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Korlsan
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Founded: Oct 24, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Korlsan » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:55 pm

As someone who has taken a love for linguistics, the reason for such he/she/it/they in languages is entirely due to trying to better and more quickly explain ideas and thoughts through a sentence. "Oh they went to the store to buy some beers." Ok, now if you're in a room with another unmarked individual but two of your other friends, a male and a female, are gone from the room. Then who was they? It's situations such as these where the whole gender placement helps out. Now with foreign languages like in the video of which I think was the first of some few posts in response to OP describing the genders of foreign languages and comparing it to English, they have specific genders for objects because of their appearance. With French and Spanish using feminine gender placement for "beautiful" items and objects, stuff of delicate handiwork; whereas they usually use the male gender placement for more "simplistic" or "unsightly" objects. And keep in mind that you will also be forced to remove the words for "him" and "her".

The whole point of the gender placement is not meant to 'offend' but rather to help convey the ideas and communicate in society. Grammatical Gender is strongly shown within Indo-European groups and many more. The only groups with no grammatical placement is Austronesian, Turkic and Uralic. The more English pushes the way it does for "correct train of thought" is only further isolating the language from the rest of the world. At one point English could communicate with some of its neighbouring languages. However, due to artificial influence (Yes, artificial. You know who you are, England!) the ties English has had with its neighbours has significantly decreased. Not only does limiting it to a simple "they" make learning foreign languages now even harder for students but also decreases the ease in which you can convey thoughts.

Now, to say these languages should "change their ways to be less offensive" is quite offensive in itself of the person saying it as the languages have cultural ties to their societies and are remnants of their past. Every word has a reason for its placement, every sentence to convey a meaning. If you use 'political correctness' as the context for which you change your language you only further the degrade of the culture that is tied with the language. Now, in the process you will also lose much ability to understand such words of that which become archaic. Just think, if we did that now and suddenly everyone stopped saying "he" and "she", many texts, songs, and other works would lose their meaning entirely. Changing the English language further and further away from its Indo-European family is only killing the culture that comes along with it.

Also, for the people who push for the use of xe for whatever unknown reason I have yet to find out, where I live that would be pronounced just like he which defeats your entire purpose.

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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:46 pm

Meryuma wrote:
Australian Republic wrote:Changing the grammatical structure of other languages to not have a gender-based structure


Modern English does not feature grammatical gender.

I am aware of this, but why the hell would change the whole system for one language?
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The Republic of Exclamation
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Founded: Dec 16, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby The Republic of Exclamation » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:52 pm

1. Is the use of the word ''He'' in writing and parlance when referring to a non-specific person discriminatory and problematic?

Mere forces of habit should not be placed in the same god-damned parish as burning crosses on lawns, let alone in the same ballpark. I personally use "they" when referring to an unknown person, though - and if the person has some weird pronoun that's not actually in the English language, I just try not to use pronouns at all.

2. Is the use of the word He/She in its place SUFFICIENT to get rid of the problematic issues? Or does it create more problems than it solves (for instance reinforcing gender binaries)?

It causes more problems in that it turns something that shouldn't really be an issue into an issue, though as I said, I usually use "they" in that capacity.

3. Should a new pronoun be introduced?

Oh heeeeeell no.
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Sinhapura
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Founded: Jan 21, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Sinhapura » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:56 pm

"The One" just makes me think of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan:

"The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few...or the one."

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Meryuma
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Ex-Nation

Postby Meryuma » Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:03 pm

Australian Republic wrote:
Meryuma wrote:

Modern English does not feature grammatical gender.

I am aware of this, but why the hell would change the whole system for one language?


There is no system being changed. Singular they is already standard colloquial usage. I hear it all the time. It's been used for hundreds of years (seriously!) and iirc is in many dictionaries.
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:06 pm

Meryuma wrote:
Australian Republic wrote:I am aware of this, but why the hell would change the whole system for one language?


There is no system being changed. Singular they is already standard colloquial usage. I hear it all the time. It's been used for hundreds of years (seriously!) and iirc is in many dictionaries.

I am aware of this, but IM's argument is to change the system
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United Earthlings
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby United Earthlings » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:11 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:My personal issue with ''it'' is that its dehumanising

it suggests that people and humans are no different from animals or objects (such as tables and chairs); when in fact, our status as the master race of the planet is indisputable


Welcome to the world of reality where compromise leaves no one happy.

Accept the personal pronoun of "they" or "it" with its dehumanizing issue.

P.S. It's only indisputable until nature decrees otherwise. Live through any natural disaster and see your thinking evolve. Also, be thankful a giant asteroid hasn't smacked the planet again, as were due for one.

Conscentia wrote:As someone pointed out earlier, personal pronouns cannot properly be replaced by indefinite pronouns as they serve a different function.

The proper English gender neutral third person singular pronoun is 'they'. As I explained earlier, the singular 'they' has both precedent and popularity...


Knew that already, I was merely adding to what those others had pointed out earlier since Infected Mushroom was loathed to use the word they.

I love the word they and use it on many an occasion.

Infected Mushroom wrote:I feel like there's definitely a link between reinforcing gender labels and the gendering of nouns and pronouns in many languages. Humanity has always had an unhealthy obsession with labelling things and reinforcing irrational labels; this must be combatted.


Good luck going against human nature you hardly the first one to attempt to do so..."The human mind is very adept at labeling. Left to its own devices, it will label situations, things, places, and people. It's a pretty handy app. Except when it comes to people. Over time those labels tend to solidify. They become all we can see. They become what we experience. The true depth of a person, the breathtaking miracle of their very existence, is replaced with a word. A sound. An assemblage of vowels and consonants. Ink or digital letters on paper or screen."
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Sinhapura
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Founded: Jan 21, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Sinhapura » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:56 pm

United Earthlings wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:our status as the master race of the planet is indisputable

P.S. It's only indisputable until nature decrees otherwise. Live through any natural disaster and see your thinking evolve. Also, be thankful a giant asteroid hasn't smacked the planet again, as were due for one.


This. Hubris much, OP?

Our species has existed for barely a millisecond in the history of the planet; it very much remains to be seen just how long we'll last. Crowing about human "supremacy" shows a shamefully narrow view of time.
Last edited by Sinhapura on Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:27 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
United Earthlings wrote:
As others have stated, you’re merely moving from personal pronouns to what's known as Indefinite Pronouns which are nouns that does not refer to a specific person or thing. In your example above the sentence would be changed to with various examples....

"Anybody who steals..."

"Anyone who steals..."

"Someone who steals..."

"Any individual who steals a cookie is a fool. Anyone would have broken the law.", etc...

If you wish a neuter gender personal pronoun, than it it is.

From the wiki: "Some people propose using "it" in a wider sense in all the situations where a gender-neutral pronoun might be desired. The advantage of using an existing word is that the language does not have to change as much. The disadvantage is the possibility of causing offense. This usage of it is currently very rare, and most commentators feel that it is unlikely to catch on.”

Trust me when I say, given human behavior people would start using it more before adapting some new word.

Then again, you can always shorten he/she to S(He) until the appropriate gender tense is known which from observations should be fine for the vast majority of likely situations and encounters.

[/snip]

My personal issue with ''it'' is that its dehumanising

it suggests that people and humans are no different from animals or objects (such as tables and chairs); when in fact, our status as the master race of the planet is indisputable

You mean like every language with grammatical grammar
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